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To: HarleyD
Here's an extract from the Preservation... chapter 17 (heavy read!)
Thus the salvation of this religion, by which only true one true salvation is truly promised, never failed him who was worthy of it; and whoever it failed was not worthy of it. And from the very beginning of the propagation of man, even to the end, the gospel is preached, to some for a reward, to some for judgment; and thus also those to whom the faith was not announced at all were foreknown as those who would not believe; and those to whom it was announced, although they were not such as would believe, are set forth as an example for the former; while those to whom it is announced who should believe, are prepared for the kingdom of heaven, and the company of the holy angels.
and whoever it failed was not worthy of it. --> no sense of pre-ordination of the damned.

Catholic dogma states that This is illustrated in Preservation... chapter 19
although foreknowledge may exist without predestination; because God foreknew by predestination those things which He was about to do, whence it was said, He made those things that shall be. Isaiah 45:11 Moreover, He is able to foreknow even those things which He does not Himself do—as all sins whatever
He goes on to say
Because, although there are some which are in such wise sins as that they are also the penalties of sins, whence it is said, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient, Romans 1:28 it is not in such a case the sin that is God's, but the judgment.
As an aside, he says in chapter 25
If the Pelagians should dare to say this, by their denial of original sin they would thus be relieved of the necessity of seeking, on behalf of infants outside of the kingdom of God, for some place of I know not what happiness of their own; especially since they are convinced that they cannot have eternal life because they have not eaten the flesh nor drank the blood of Christ; and because in them who have no sin at all, baptism, which is given for the remission of sins, is falsified.

2,276 posted on 01/31/2011 6:46:08 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos
Here's an extract from the Preservation... chapter 17 (heavy read!)...

Ooooooo....doggy. You Catholics sure do have a way of making things complicated. How about this.

If a person is truly saved they will continue. If they are not truly saved then it's clear that they are not "of us". That seems rather straight forward with perseverance.

This is illustrated in Preservation... chapter 19 although foreknowledge may exist without predestination; because God foreknew by predestination those things which He was about to do, whence it was said, He made those things that shall be. Isaiah 45:11 Moreover, He is able to foreknow even those things which He does not Himself do—as all sins whatever

I hate to repeat this mismash but this is a good illustration of the misuse of "foreknowledge". Here is a good read:


2,297 posted on 01/31/2011 11:08:20 AM PST by HarleyD
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