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To: HarleyD; Cronos; MarkBsnr
"There is no scriptural proof."

Beyond what Christ said according to scriptures, what further "proof" would you need? We know that +Ignatius of Antioch believed in the Real Presence. We know that the 2nd century anaphorae of The Church certainly appear to teach the Real Presence. It is also apparent that there were people running around at the end of the 1st century and into the 2nd who didn't believe in the Real Presence, but that understanding of scripture seems to have faded away until after Luther. In any event, what would scripture have to say to convince you that Christ meant what he said?

"The early fathers also believed our Lord paid the penalty for sin to appease the Father's wrath for us. Heck, they believed that for 1500 years."

The Fathers did, HD? Which ones?

3,234 posted on 02/04/2011 7:03:17 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis
Beyond what Christ said according to scriptures, what further "proof" would you need?...In any event, what would scripture have to say to convince you that Christ meant what he said?

Do you believe the night our Lord Jesus was with His disciples giving instructions on the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the cup that it actually changed into His body and blood? It's clearer that Christ message of the Last Supper was more symbolic then actual. Christ was willing to share the Last Supper with Judas (Luke 22). John 6 should be looked at in light of the Matthew 26.

We know that +Ignatius of Antioch believed in the Real Presence.

Yes, many of the early fathers believed in the Real Presence. There are some that did not. Up until the 9th century there seems to have been an undercurrent of this. Ratramnus wrote a treatise on this under Charles the Bald (love that). It wasn't until 1215 that the Church settle the matter but by then the seeds of the Reformation was already being planted.

HD-"The early fathers also believed our Lord paid the penalty for sin to appease the Father's wrath for us.

The Fathers did, HD? Which ones?

Well, John and Paul for starters...

Tsk, tsk....you should know that. ;O)
3,296 posted on 02/05/2011 3:40:47 PM PST by HarleyD
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