Posted on 01/21/2011 12:26:40 PM PST by marshmallow
Amen! Thank you. I don’t see why it is so difficult for people to recognize that the commemoration of the last supper has every bit as much importance to us as Christians observing Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection for us for all our sins and that we do NOT need to pretend what we eat and drink are mysteriously changed by an incantation. His communion/remembrance is to honor and meditate upon what he did for us, not to try to metaphysically place ourselves back there to live in the moment. It is also to remind us of the responsibility we have to each other in the entire body of Christ to honor and love as he would have us do.
Your own source even says Augustine was well-known for his belief in Limited Atonement. lol. With "evidence" like that, you lose.
Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the entire world, but it was efficient for only the elect, or else all the world would be saved.
Are you a universalist? Do you believe all men are saved?
Augustine didn't.
Here Augustine clearly draws a line between believers (THE CHURCH) and reprobates where "the whole world" means "all believers," not "all men," or he would not have drawn the distinction between "the church" and all others.
(Augustine on 1 John 2:2) - For he that has said, “We have Jesus Christ the righteous, and He is the propitiation for our sins:” having an eye to those who would divide themselves, and would say, “Lo, here is Christ, lo, there;” Matthew 24:23 and would show Him in a part who bought the whole and possesses the whole, he immediately goes on to say, “Not our sins only, but also the sins of the whole world.” What is this, brethren? Certainly “we have found it in the fields of the woods,” we have found the Church in all nations. Behold, Christ “is the propitiation for our sins; not ours only, but also the sins of the whole world.” Behold, you have the Church throughout the whole world; do not follow false justifiers who in truth are cutters off. Be in that mountain which has filled the whole earth: because “Christ is the propitiation for our sins; not only ours, but also the sins of the whole world,” which He has bought with His blood.
If Christ had "bought with His blood" the redemption of all men everywhere, then all men everywhere would be saved.
And they aren't.
As for "church fathers," Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas also believed in Limited Atonement.
If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved.
Christ tells us in John 10 "the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep;" and all men are not Christ's sheep. Only those whom God has given to Him to bring home. If Christ died for men who are not saved, then his death failed in its purpose and this is impossible. Limited atonement is sometimes described as "definite atonement" or "particular atonement" because Christ's death definitely and literally provided redemption for the people of God.
To believe in a universal, unlimited atonement means that Christ's death merely made it possible for men to be saved. He didn't really save anyone in particular on Calvary. Which is not what Scripture tells us. Scripture says Christ came to redeem His sheep, and He did exactly that.
Read Charles Hodge's excellent chapter on the Limited Atonement of Augustine as opposed to the Unlimited Atonement of various universalists...
This is a question between Augustinians and Anti-Augustinians. The former believing that God from all eternity having elected some to everlasting life, had a special reference to their salvation in the mission and work of his Son. The latter, denying that there has been any such election of a part of the human family to salvation, maintain that the mission and work of Christ had an equal reference to all mankind...
And speaking of the "church fathers," let's hear what Thomas Aquinas has to say about predestination and election...
“The reason for the predestination of some and reprobation of others (praedestinationis aliquorum, et reprobationis aliorum) must be sought for in the divine goodness.... God wills to manifest his goodness in those whom he predestines, by means of the mercy with which he spares them; and in respect of others whom he reprobates, by means of the justice with which he punishes them. This is the reason why God chooses some (quosdam eligit) and reprobates others (quosdam reprobat).... Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will (non habet rationem nisi divinam voluntatem).”
Sounds like a sturdy Calvinist.
You mean like the Baltimore Catechism teaches here?
The sacrament of Penance is the sacrament by which sins committed after Baptism are forgiven through the absolution of the priest. The priest has the power to forgive sins from Jesus Christ. Our Lord said to the apostles and to their successors in the priesthood: "Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." The effects of the sacrament of Penance, worthily received, are: (1) sanctifying grace; (2) the forgiveness of sins; (3) the remission of the eternal punishment, if necessary, and also, of part at least, of the temporal punishment due to our sins; (4) the help to avoid sin in future; (5) the restoration of the merits of our good works if they have been lost by mortal sin.
So Roman Catholics are taught that their good works "merit" forgiveness of sins. Salvation.
And God's word denies that.
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" -- Titus 3:5
Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture?
Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies?
What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men.
Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
From the time of Nero (d. A.D. 68), the Christian faith was treated by the civil authorities as an unlawful religion, and Christians were slandered by pagan propagandists as atheists who took part in cannibal feasts and indulged in sexual promiscuityRemember, just as for you to doubt scripture, it was also hard for the Roman pagans to believe Jesus Christ's words directly or through Paul, hence Justin Martyr who wrote in his First Apology (A.D. 151) to the pagan Emperor "The food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus."
“And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing eh persons nor dividing the substance.” Not three gods but one God in essence. And yet not one Person but three Persons. Tri-une. Three in One and One in Three. Got it?There's a lot more detailed proof on why Jesus Christ is BOTH True man and True God. Jesus Christ is our Lord and our God. There’s a lot more there to help you to know Jesus Christ as God.
The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:
Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.
Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life
The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Rom 6:19, 22 --> Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.... But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life
Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life
The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification
The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace.
Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the ChurchAs you can see Quix.
With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator
The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
Our merits are God's gifts.
We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God
Matthew 1:23 :“The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[a] (which means “God with us”).We Christians profess Jesus to be the only Son of God, the Lord and the eternal Word of God.
John 20:28
Acts 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom
On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.The liturgy of the Eucharist unfolds according to a fundamental structure which has been preserved throughout the centuries down to our own day. It displays two great parts that form a fundamental unity:
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.
When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.
Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.
When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.
Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.
He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.
When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'
When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.
On the Road to Emmaus
13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.
The unbroken connection with apostolic times is also revealed in the external forms of the liturgy. The altar is today the only place in our modern life where, with unbroken tradition, the vestments are still used which were worn by people in that olden day. Within the walls of the church one can still hear musical settings that preserve something of the very tones of that hymn of praise which our Lord and His disciples sang when they ate the paschal meal. The church is the one place in the modern world where one can still hear the best of medieval music and see the choicest treasures of medieval art as a living part of our culture. There is nothing in all the world today which embraces so much of an ancient culture or so many revered traditions as our chief liturgical service.
“...and no man is authorized to start another one!”
And yet, we have the Roman Catholic Church. If only the RCC did as the scripture commanded instead of men making up blasphemous “traditions” out of whole cloth.
Hoss
“Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life”
Then why does the Roman Catholic Church need to add to this??? And, please—do not say that Rome has not or does not do that very thing, because we all here have seen “tradition” touted.
That is the problem — out of one side of a Rome’s mouth we hear God’s Word quoted, and then, out the other side we hear it twisted and mangled so viciously all for the purpose of controlling people, and trying (and may I add, not very successfully) to support false, man-made doctrines that have no foundation outside of men.
Sorry— had stopped with what God said, ‘we are saved by grace’ Instead of pushing traditions (here and other threads), we could agree.
Hoss
‘Remember, just as for you to doubt scripture, it was also hard for the Roman pagans to believe Jesus Christ’s words directly or through Paul, hence Justin Martyr who wrote in his First Apology (A.D. 151) to the pagan Emperor “The food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus.”’
First of all, I’ll thank you for not trying to read my mind; I do not doubt scripture; can you not resist making this personal? After so many warnings? Sheesh.
I DO however not only doubt, but in many cases deny the Roman Catholic interpretation (’mangling’) of scripture.
The Book of Martyr is canonized where?
Hoss
“Actually, no, it’s what the Scripture says clearly.”
It’s too bad that for ‘clearly’ to have meaning to Rome, the definition must be changed to ‘distorting.’
Re-read my post about what participation means.
Fail. Try again.
Hoss
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