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To: metmom
"And of course it applies to prohibiting contacting those whom the Catholic church has labeled as saints, because when the Bible refers to the dead, it refers to those whose physical bodies have died."

Now you have gone off the reservation and done exactly what you accuse other of. You have added to Scripture by extrapolating and adding definitions not found in Scripture. In the absence of a Magisterium exactly what did you draw on for that?

963 posted on 02/11/2011 9:14:48 PM PST by Natural Law (As a Catholic I know I am held to a higher standard (but it's worth it).)
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To: Natural Law; metmom
Question for you NL. I've been following this discussion and prayers to saints, praying to the dead and so forth.

I've seen the 'explanation' from the RCC that says bascially, "Praying to the saints is the same thing as asking another Christian to pray for you..." et. al. and they pray for us...etc. etc. etc.

#1 - Now if you read Luke 16:19-31, the account of the rich man and Lazarus the poor man. Both die, the rich man goes to hell and the poor man, Lazarus, to Abraham's bosom, or Heaven. The rich man begs Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers who are still living to be able to warn them about Hell. Abraham replies, "They have Moses and the prophets....." [1st century Scripture]. Lazarus repeats his quest and then asks his family members receive a visit from the dead again as they will 'believe' then and Abraham replies, "'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, [1st century Scripture] they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

So clearly here the emphasis is placed on Scripture once again. They have the Scriptures, that is what they should be listening to, is basically what Abraham tells Lazarus. The rich man is not told to pray to Lazarus, nor is Lazarus in this passage ever accepting prayers or petitions from the rich man, or the rich man's still living family members. In contrast, the rich man isn't told to pray to Lazarus for His family still living, he is told his family is to basically read the Scriptures...

#2 - So now here's my question:

IF (for the sake of argument) IF its an okay thing to pray to the dead and have the dead pray for you and its just 'the same thing as asking a [living] brother in Christ to pray for you.......Okay so, IF...

IF a brother in Christ were to come to you, NL, and ask you to pray for him what would you do? Yeah, sure you probably say, "How can I help?" But suppose it gets more indepth? SUPPOSE, that brother bends down and kneels before you, then he IMPLORES you to pray for him.....then he asks you to be his advocate before God....then he thanks you for all the GRACES you have given him....then (still kneeling) he thanks you for saving him and delivering him from Hell......then he implores you to keep his salvation in your care and see him safely to Heaven???? Is that just a prayer between Christian brothers or is that worship? How do you react? Do you tell him to get up and worship God, as the angel did to John in Rev. 22:9 when John fell down and kneeled before the angel? Did the angel accept it? No. Why should a saint? Living or dead? In every instance in Scripture when a man fell down before someone or some thing it was always called WORSHIP (cf I Cor. 14:25; Rev. 7:11; Rev. 11:16; Rev. 19:4, 10).

My contention based on Scripture is that the above scenario would be considered worship. And that worship should be directed to God, and God alone, not you (no offense dude, but you're not that Holy). Why? Because God is the only one who has the authority to bestow 'graces' or salvation. He's it.

And I use that analogy of some brother kneeling down before you because that is the EXACT types of prayers being given to Mary and to the saints! People are kneeling before their statues, they are asking them to grant their salvation and guide them into Heaven. Its worship. Every Scriptural definition of worship, and every dictionary definition of worship would call it worship. And when worship, which belongs to God, gets directed to fallen humanity.......then its blasphemy. See the difference?

964 posted on 02/11/2011 10:11:31 PM PST by conservativegramma
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