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To: T Minus Four

You guys are forgetting that faith in the Lord Jesus is a gift! God will not condemn those who did not get that gift - on no fault of their own hence the word invincible ignorance. That too is dogma.

BTW, the Jewish people were redempted by the Son of God Himself when He prayed, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” The key word here is redemption not exoneration. Exoneration would be a kind of protestant error whereby we are all shoe-ins for Heaven no matter how we lead our lives. We still have to conform our behavior to God’s laws and be in a state of grace to enter Heaven and/or Purgatory. Christ gave us the opportunity, but we have to cooperate. And on Jesus’s remark, I think it’s fair to say that he was referring to the Roman soliders as well as everyone else, probably all of us too.


52 posted on 03/02/2011 12:22:57 PM PST by Pope Pius XII (There's no such thing as divorce)
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To: Pope Pius XII
You guys are forgetting that faith in the Lord Jesus is a gift! God will not condemn those who did not get that gift - on no fault of their own hence the word invincible ignorance. That too is dogma.

I don't question that this is dogma. And, to begin with, how can I, a Jew, argue the Christian dogma with you, Pope Pius XII? That would be very presumptuous, wouldn't it?

It's an easy and tempting thing to do: to shift the issue to a discussion of dogma. The real question is and has never been of dogma but why the way in which the Church practiced that dogma.

And, if how does one explain that, with almost absolute consistency over two millennia, starting immediately upon inception, in its treatment of Jews the Church (i) herself practiced the opposite of its dogma, and (ii) never punished members of its floc for violating the dogma --- even when violations took the form of murder?

How come an institution demanding the love even of one's enemies never condemed mass killings, rape and plunder of people who were not even enemies but neighbors that had lived on the same land for centuries?

How come the Pope, preeching to love "thy enemy as thy neighgbor" could not tolerate Jews even as neighbors, expelling them from the Papal States?

No, it's not about dogma. When somone violates our laws, we don't just explain, "Sorry that guy acted contrary to our laws." We catch the murderer and send him to jail or another world. No, we don't discuss dogma with a kid orphaned by the murderer.

It's about the responsiblity of promulgating the dogma. Note that the Church expended considerable effort --- and was quite victoruous --- against Arianism, Albigenses, etc. There is just one "perversion" --- anti-Semitism, the oldest one of all! --- that somehow escapted the Chruch's efforts and stayed alive for two milllennia. Do you really, really buy that?

Silly me: I am arguing with the Pope.

77 posted on 03/02/2011 1:43:00 PM PST by TopQuark
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To: Pope Pius XII
re:You guys are forgetting that faith in the Lord Jesus is a gift! God will not condemn those who did not get that gift - on no fault of their own hence the word invincible ignorance. That too is dogma.

1) re: God will not condemn those who did not get that gift.

ANSWER: God gives the same gift to everyone, it's called grace.

2) re: "God will not condemn those who (through)no fault of their own hence the word invincible ignorance.That too is dogma

ANSWER: Invincible ignorance is a theological construct, a theory, with no dogmatic status whatsoever. No one is without fault for they all get the grace from God.

Besides, are you saying that all those who die outside of the Church are so dense so ignorant that God's Grace, "who can turn stones into son of Abraham" can't convert them?

110 posted on 03/02/2011 4:37:53 PM PST by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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