The Hidden Exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants

National Catholic Reporter ^ | April 18, 2011 | Thomas Reese

[Publius Valerius]

to know how painstakingly pastors are judged by their congregations on every aspect of their preaching.

A Pastor should be judged on the content of his message. If he is being judged by the congregation on another basis, that, in my mind, is a failing of the congregation (and, ironically, the Pastor, for allowing his congregation to fall into that trap) and--more importantly--unChristian.

[wmfights]

Let’s stay on track here.

Then answer the question.

[don-o]

Where’s the Bible for it? With your next dodge, it can be safely concluded that there is none. Right?

[BelleAl]

I’m married to a former Catholic and you hit the nail on the head. We go to an Evangelical nondenominational church and every week we leave on Sunday inspired (and convicted) by the message to apply Biblical teachings to our daily lives.

This relevancy is appealing in such a lost world.

[HarleyD]

What I do know is that he’ll be smeared somehow in just a few short minutes.

You should have made that 10 seconds. ;O)

Rather interesting article. I'm rather surprise a large percentage ends up attending evangelical churches.

[wmfights]

With your next dodge, it can be safely concluded that there is none. Right?

Wrong. It's a straight forward question that you refuse to answer. I can only guess it's out of ignorance.

The question was: "He is going to ask why He should admit you into heaven.. What would you as a catholic say?"

Instead of an answer it's the typical 2 step. It's alright, our churches are gaining members seeking the answer.

[don-o]

Instead of an answer it's the typical 2 step.

So. The question is not in the Bible. It's just made up by some preacher.

[Campion]

Identifying a public Obama supporter, whose theology is as left-wing as his politics, as a liberal is "smearing" him now?

Sorry, I must be on the wrong website. Somehow I thought I was on Free Republic.

[verdugo]

Excerpt from: ACERBO NIMIS - ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON TEACHING CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE - 1905 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_15041905_acerbo-nimis_en.html)

"The enemy has, indeed, long been prowling about the fold and attacking it with such subtle cunning that now, more than ever before, the prediction of the Apostle to the elders of the Church of Ephesus seems to be verified: "I know that . . . fierce wolves will get in among you, and will not spare the flock."[1] Those who still are zealous for the glory of God are seeking the causes and reasons for this decline in religion. Coming to a different explanation, each points out, according to his own view, a different plan for the protection and restoration of the kingdom of God on earth. But it seems to Vs, Venerable Brethren, that while we should not overlook other considerations, We are forced to agree with those who hold that the chief cause of the present indifference and, as it were, infirmity of soul, and the serious evils that result from it, is to be found above all in ignorance of things divine. This is fully in accord with what God Himself declared through the Prophet Osee: "And there is no knowledge of God in the land. Cursing and lying and killing and theft and adultery have overflowed: and blood hath touched blood. Thereafter shall the land mourn, and everyone that dwelleth in it shall languish."

2. It is a common complaint, unfortunately too well founded, that there are large numbers of Christians in our own time who are entirely ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation. And when we mention Christians, We refer not only to the masses or to those in the lower walks of life - for these find some excuse for their ignorance in the fact that the demands of their harsh employers hardly leave them time to take care of themselves or of their dear ones - but We refer to those especially who do not lack culture or talents and, indeed, are possessed of abundant knowledge regarding things of the world but live rashly and imprudently with regard to religion. It is hard to find words to describe how profound is the darkness in which they are engulfed and, what is most deplorable of all, how tranquilly they repose there"

---------------------------------------------

“They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us”. (1 John 2-9)

----------------------------------------------------

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

[verdugo]

Excerpt from: ACERBO NIMIS - ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON TEACHING CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE - 1905 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_15041905_acerbo-nimis_en.html)

"The enemy has, indeed, long been prowling about the fold and attacking it with such subtle cunning that now, more than ever before, the prediction of the Apostle to the elders of the Church of Ephesus seems to be verified: "I know that . . . fierce wolves will get in among you, and will not spare the flock."[1] Those who still are zealous for the glory of God are seeking the causes and reasons for this decline in religion. Coming to a different explanation, each points out, according to his own view, a different plan for the protection and restoration of the kingdom of God on earth. But it seems to Vs, Venerable Brethren, that while we should not overlook other considerations, We are forced to agree with those who hold that the chief cause of the present indifference and, as it were, infirmity of soul, and the serious evils that result from it, is to be found above all in ignorance of things divine. This is fully in accord with what God Himself declared through the Prophet Osee: "And there is no knowledge of God in the land. Cursing and lying and killing and theft and adultery have overflowed: and blood hath touched blood. Thereafter shall the land mourn, and everyone that dwelleth in it shall languish."

2. It is a common complaint, unfortunately too well founded, that there are large numbers of Christians in our own time who are entirely ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation. And when we mention Christians, We refer not only to the masses or to those in the lower walks of life - for these find some excuse for their ignorance in the fact that the demands of their harsh employers hardly leave them time to take care of themselves or of their dear ones - but We refer to those especially who do not lack culture or talents and, indeed, are possessed of abundant knowledge regarding things of the world but live rashly and imprudently with regard to religion. It is hard to find words to describe how profound is the darkness in which they are engulfed and, what is most deplorable of all, how tranquilly they repose there"

---------------------------------------------

“They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us”. (1 John 2-9)

----------------------------------------------------

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

[HarleyD]

All I see is that he's a liberal. So what? You can question the author's conclusions or solutions, but it's rather difficult to argue with the statistics from an independent organization. If Catholics are leaving to become evangelicals then there must be a problem.

Liberals may quote Rasmussen polls to try to make a point. It doesn't make the statistics wrong. What solutions they conclude may (and often are) incorrect.

[Campion]

It's just made up by some preacher.

Don-o, it sounds a lot like Gnosticism to me. The Mormons think you have to have the special handshakes and the Five Points of Fellowship of the Melchizedek Priesthood to get into heaven. Maybe the Evangelicals think you have to be able to glibly recite a "testimony" of their "Gospel".

Neither one is Scriptural.

wmfights, I don't believe God is going to be asking me any questions when I die. He has all the answers already.

But if I'm wrong, here's a picture of my defense attorney. All questions should be addressed to him:

[Campion]

All I see is that he's a liberal.

You're the one who said he was being smeared, not me.

If Catholics are leaving to become evangelicals then there must be a problem.

Never said otherwise. But the problem was caused precisely by some of the things Reese identifies as the solutions. Lorica's post #114 identifies exactly what I'm talking about.

[verdugo]

Compare the dogmatic decree of 1441 Pope Eugene IV’s, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, AND and “Christ Among Us”, by Fr. Anthony Wilhelm, the major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press, it has sold over 2,000,000 copies)

Oil and Vinegar, the two will never mix.

Olive Oil Catholicism

Among adults there are few saved, because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)

If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)

They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day St. Bernard their also died 79,999 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved. So out of 80,000 dead, 79,999 went to Hell.

So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved! (St. Philip Neri)

Scarcely anyone is saved. (St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori)
_________________________________________________________

Vinegar Catholicism

“There are other ways of being united to God besides baptism. Most of the human race has never heard of or cannot believe in Christ or baptism. As the world population increases, Christians become proportionately less. The Christian life begun by baptism is becoming more and more the privilege and responsibility of a few. Most of humanity is united with God in other ways. (op. cit., p. 199).
Many men come to God in this way through other, nonChristian religions ... So, too, one who cannot believe in a personal God, through no fault of his own, but is committed to following his conscience, receives God’s grace pre sence God lives within many unbelievers, though they may oppose him or those who try to work for him. (p.200).
Theology has no complete answer as to how, or even whether anyone may be damned forever.
(p. 289, Christ Among Us, by Fr. Anthony Wilhelm. The major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press, it has sold over 2,000,000 copies)
unedited original:

DESIRE AND DECEPTION 119
The major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America was Christ Among Us, by the then Fr. Anthony Wilhelm, C.S.P. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press (ah, our old friends!), it has sold over 2,000,000 copies, although publication was switched to the secular firm of Harper and Row after the Vatican insisted Archbishop Gerety’s imprimatur be removed a few years ago. Your author will now share with his readers its insights on the question of salvation:
There are other ways of being united to God besides baptism. Most of the human race has never heard of or cannot believe in Christ or baptism. As the world population increases, Christians become proportionately less. The Christian life begun by baptism is becoming more and more the privilege and responsibility of a few. Most of humanity is united with God in other ways. (op. cit., p. 199).
Many men come to God in this way through other, nonChristian religions ... So, too, one who cannot believe in a personal God, through no fault of his own, but is committed to following his conscience, receives God’s grace pre
sence God lives within many unbelievers, though they may
oppose him or those who try to work for him. (p.200).
Theology has no complete answer as to how, or even whether anyone may be damned forever. (p. 289).
This heretical viewpoint, as even Rahner observed, has no basis in
Revelation. It is therefore all. Yet it is
dominant in most sectors of the Church today. It is an error which has
slithered all the way to the top, and carried in its train either denial or
trivialization of all other dogmas. So complete is its hold that most
Catholic commentary on earlier writers is informed by it, 6 la Brodrick.
Your author cites as a case in point the edition of Ven. Walter
Hilton quoted earlier, which, you may recall, records Hilton’s
opposition to the then novel notion that belief did not matter with
regard to salvation. Translator M. L. Del Masto’s footnotes on p. 350
to that section quoted are most revealing:
1. The position Hilton refutes here is now the orthodox one and goes under the name Baptism of Desire, though in his own time it was, at best, a probable opinion [probable? Your author must beg leave to differ considering the weight of the quoted authorities in the earlier chapters of this book]. I

[verdugo]

They lost the faith, that is why they left the Church, it is palin and simple, they prefereed the darkness. One is not a real Catholic who lives the faith because they read the right books and go to mass. One is a real Catholic because they respond to God's Grace, PERIOD. A sinner instantly looses sanctifying grace, and outside of the Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Catholic Doctrine on Grace

Outside of the Catholic Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Although, predisposing or prevenient graces are given to anyone of those outside the Catholic Church, so that they can turn to God, change their lives and enter the Catholic Church, for without these graces no one would ever convert. However, outside the Catholic Church no sinner can attain sanctifying grace, the state justice wherein one can receive in their soul the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They can't receive sanctifying grace because they are in a perpetual state of mortal sin, since there is no way for them to receive remission of sin outside of the Church.

DOGMA:

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…”

[Campion]

The position Hilton refutes here is now the orthodox one and goes under the name Baptism of Desire, though in his own time it was, at best, a probable opinion

The Council of Trent taught dogmatically that either baptism or the desire of it was required for salvation. (The Latin of the decree is aut voto eius. A Feeneyite gentleman of my acquaintance tried to tell me that aut voto eius meant "and the desire of it". That's false; any Latin dictionary proves it quickly.)

[verdugo]

They lost the faith, that is why they left the Church, it is plain and simple, they preferred the darkness. One is not a real Catholic who lives the faith because they read the right books and go to mass. One is a real Catholic because they respond to God's Grace, PERIOD. A sinner instantly looses sanctifying grace, and outside of the Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Catholic Doctrine on Grace

Outside of the Catholic Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Although, predisposing or prevenient graces are given to anyone of those outside the Catholic Church, so that they can turn to God, change their lives and enter the Catholic Church, for without these graces no one would ever convert. However, outside the Catholic Church no sinner can attain sanctifying grace, the state justice wherein one can receive in their soul the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They can't receive sanctifying grace because they are in a perpetual state of mortal sin, since there is no way for them to receive remission of sin outside of the Church.

DOGMA:

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…”

[verdugo]

Who is Hilton?

[Lorica]

ut the problem was caused precisely by some of the things Reese identifies as the solutions. Lorica's post #114 identifies exactly what I'm talking about.

Here's the thing: If the Church had not had to deal with bishops and priests who have worked to weaken the Church from within for decades, you would not see the numbers leaving the Church from then till now.

The lack of nuts-and-bolts catechetical instruction (including scriptural), the loss of reverence in the liturgy, and those who, like Reese, wanted, and got, "flexibility" have left generations of Catholics unsure of what they believe. You may think it's a blessing. I think it's a tragedy.

And regarding your seeming lack of interest in whether he's a liberal: Liberals are only detested in news/activism. On the religion forum they're useful tools to some.

[verdugo]

re:The Council of Trent taught dogmatically that either baptism or the desire of it was required for salvation.

Trent taught that either baptism or the desire of it was required for justification (not salvation as you wrote).There's a big difference.

The problem with baptism of desire, is that it splitting hairs, asking the question: What happens to a person who is pre-justified before receiving the water of baptism, and dies in that condition? St. Augustine called it the vortex of confusion, to think that God could give the grace for conversion of the hardened sinner, then could not keep the person alive long enough to have any passerby pour the water and say the few words.

Anyhow, baptism of desire does not apply here to this thread, since we are talking about baptized Catholics who have left the Church