The Church Fathers- Mary: Ever Virgin

The Church Fathers ^ | 120AD-450AD

[Mad Dawg]

I'm about to be officious 'n stuff. Shields up, shovels out! Yesterday, owing largely to smvoice's Christian patience, a degree of real comity was reached here. There was listening and sharing across a divide of theology, style, and hostility.

Though the casual observer might miss it, smvoice and I were engaging in prayer and praise together. When one considers the history and even the vibe at the beginning of the day's work, this is nothing less than an act of God, in my view, and it is marvellous in my eyes.

We've all tweaked one another pretty severely. We all bear wounds that may make us wince to the end of our days. And, if I may say so, like a killdeer who pretends to be wounded to distract predators from her clutch of eggs, we all should respect Quix's ability to draw and then take fire, even as we wish he'd reserve it for democrats and our other enemies.

Please, by the bowels of Christ (Cromwell's way of invoking Divine compassion) let us note this small comity and see if through prayer and charity it can grow into a kind of fellowship which, while treating differences respectfully and seriously, will itself enrage our ancient enemy (who rubs his hands when we go at one another) and startle the non-Christians who have used our severe antipathies as an excuse to turn away from the Lord of Love.

Okay -- even I can't be that smarmy for too long. You're ALL a bunch of bozos (βοζοι?), and everybody but me and one or two of my closest friends will burn in the unquenchable fire, so there.

[Cronos]

Yesterday, owing largely to smvoice's Christian patience, a degree of real comity was reached here. There was listening and sharing across a divide of theology, style, and hostility.

hmmm... ok -- I'm willing to call an armistice on your say-so, MD.

If there's a dialogue, good....

[Quix]

EXCELLENT POINTS.

I have persistently noted . . . Proddys have the same hazards with different flavors . . . and . . . imho, too often, different frequencies and intensities.

I still assert that the larger and older the organization, the worse such things tend to get—regardless of the labels on the door or even regardless of the basic doctrines.

I also assert . . . I’m quite skeptical, Dear Mad Dawg . . . that you . . . ROUTINELY . . . give as discerning a scrutiny at many of your cohorts on such issues . . . as they warrant.

The Onlooker sees the game the best. —Chinese proverb.

[Quix]

MORE EXCELLENT POINTS.

YOU’RE ON A ROLL.

Just watch that hat size, now.

LUB BRO.

[smvoice]

Thank you for the beautiful testimony of truth you gave here. From my vantage point, it was exactly as you wrote, Mad Dawg. I could go on here, but I would be taking away from the beauty of what we both witnessed yesterday. God Bless.

smvoice

[Mad Dawg]

“His mercies endure forever.”

[mlizzy]

Thank you for the beautiful testimony of truth you gave here. From my vantage point, it was exactly as you wrote, Mad Dawg. I could go on here, but I would be taking away from the beauty of what we both witnessed yesterday. God Bless. --smvoice

Aww, nice words. Group hug!! :)

[Mad Dawg]

Hey, look! Dominicans!

(inside joke.)

[mlizzy]

Another great Vortex by Michael Voris (very touching), A Mother's Death.

[jiminycricket000]

"Pure fable...Does God hear muzlims when they pray to Mohammed or that black statue (idol, rock)???"

My guess is no, I do not believe God hears the prayers of Muslims in the same way He hears His followers, His children. He may be aware that Muslims are praying, only not to Him, but rather to an idol.

[Titanites]

"Pure fable...Does God hear muzlims when they pray to Mohammed or that black statue (idol, rock)???"

Where do you get the idea that Muslims pray to Mohamed or a black statue/rock? Do you have a reference you can provide?

[Iscool]

Where do you get the idea that Muslims pray to Mohamed or a black statue/rock? Do you have a reference you can provide?

Haven't looked into it in years...But if I remember correctly, over in Mecca, they walk around in a circle, by the millions with the 'black' rock in the center of the circle...They pray to the rock, they kiss the rock...The rock is supposed to Allah...

[Titanites]

But if I remember correctly, over in Mecca, they walk around in a circle, by the millions with the 'black' rock in the center of the circle...They pray to the rock, they kiss the rock...The rock is supposed to Allah...

Your rememberance is incorrect. Again.

[Iscool]

Your rememberance is incorrect. Again.

It's close...Close enough to make the point...

In recent years, however, literalist views of the Black Stone have emerged. A small minority accepts as literally true an allegorical hadith which asserts that "the Stone will appear on the Day of Judgement (Qiyamah) with eyes to see and a tongue to speak, and give evidence in favor of all who kissed it in true devotion, but speak out against whoever indulged in gossip or profane conversations during his circumambulation of the Kaaba".

The black stone

[Titanites]

It's close...Close enough to make the point...

Not really, but I suppose it's as close as you get on other things, like your interpretation of Scripture or your understanding of the Church.

A small minority accepts as literally true an allegorical hadith

A small minority. Here's what the vast majority believe:

Islam strictly prohibits idolatry. Muslims believe that the Stone's role in hajj is simply representative and symbolic nature, not related to belief in the stone itself as having any special power. A well-known hadith records that, when second Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab (580-644) came to kiss the Stone, he said in front of all assembled: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you." Most Muslims follow the example of Umar: they pay their respects to the Stone in a spirit of trust in Muhammad, not with any inherent belief in the Stone. This, however, does not indicate their disrespect to the Black Stone, but their belief that harm and benefit are in the hands of God, and nothing else.

There's nothing in there about the stone being Allah.

[Cronos]

The actual marriage involved the bridegroom taking the bride home, which Joseph did AFTER Mary was with child

So, did Joseph take his "marital rights" then?

[Former Fetus]

Trying to be a smart alec? I think it has been said several dozen times in this thread that Joseph did not "take his marital rights" until after the birth of Jesus(Matt. 1:25). At the same time, the gospels mention several times the brothers and sisters of Jesus, which would "strongly suggest" that Joseph had relations with Mary after the birth of Jesus. And no, don't give me that "it's not brothers or sisters but close kin" line. There are different words in Greek to refer to both, and the common use of those words in Scripture indicates that they were literal brothers and sisters.

As a former Catholic, brought up in Catholic private school, national catequism champion... I don't understand why does it matter so much to y'all whether Joseph and Mary had relations after the birth of Jesus or not! What does that add or substract to your salvation? Salvation comes by grace, by faith in what Jesus did for us at the cross. All this business of Mary conceived sinless (Paul must not have known that, when he wrote "we all have sinned") and remaining ever virgin has nothing to do with our salvation but a lot to do with remnants of Babylonian misticism!