Posted on 07/11/2011 2:47:29 AM PDT by markomalley
” ... the wor - or- orld ... “
Now, that’s funny! My dear eldest daughter cannot abide the modern music in Mass. Wherever she goes, I hear her ratings of the Masses she has attended and the music in Mass has a deep influence on her. She selects her parish based on the experience in the confessional and the music.
“I’m just praying for a local Anglican parish with a dignified reverent liturgy to cross the Tiber. “
I’ve been searching and waiting for the same thing. I recently visited Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago. Now that’s a church! It is gloriously artistic and showcases man’s ability to praise God through architecture. The music was beautiful and they still kneel. I felt wonderful there. One Mass there fed my soul for a month.
Now if only I could find that in my hometown. Our bishop, meanwhile, is talking about buying the Crystal Cathedral!
Holding hands during the Pater is some sort of Protestant custom imported by Charismatics. I don't think you can really blame the bishops for it, except to the extent that they've tolerated it or given a bad example by doing it themselves.
And no, it's not required, and it's wrong to try to impose it on people -- even if it's lay people imposing it on other lay people.
We never held hands when I was Protestant, but then, it was Presbyterian, and rather stiff. However, I’ve never been in a Catholic parish that did not, although I’ve probably visited some. Doesn’t bother me either way. I’m nearly always holding onto my kids, anyway.
Be ready for the text change the first week of Advent. It's creeping up on us.
I have begun resisting pressure by not holding hands during the Our Father. I just hold my hands up in front of me, put my head down, close my eyes, and pray it. Last week, while in this posture of prayer, I had a fellow parishioner come across the aisle and tap me on the arm and make me hold his hand!
When the choir is off, I do what the sisters do - lace my fingers at my waist and bow my head. I assume they're correct. Not that we hold hands at my parish.
Why on Earth do our bishops tinker with custom like this? We should all be using our bodies in the same way at every Mass in the country. Isn’t it incorrect to hold hands during the Our Father?
I don't know that it originated with the bishops. They just haven't corrected it.
That's Cardinal George's influence. Before he went there, word is kneeling was not done. I would imagine the music, too. Bernardin was into the banal stuff.
It was the non-Catholic Taize chanting source which HELPED me both discover and appriciate the older Catholic sources of liturgy music. This is very important because I grew up, as a child of the VC II NOT knowing ANY of the older Catholic sources in regards to music. I have on my iTunes music roster chants from the Spanish Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos.
That is why, I say that Taize should be given CREDIT where CREDIT is DUE, for honoring this RICH music heritage. For this is why I say it is a begining level to chant.
Plus there are people like myself, who grew up under the shadow of VC2, and even in the music ministry that I am in, the minister that has just retired and the one coming in, did very mininmal Latin-related chants at best.
Unaffectionately known as the "Massive Cremation".
-- written by Marty Haugen....a Lutheran.
Hah! We wish Marty Haugen were a Lutheran. He's an ex-Lutheran; a member of the United Church of Christ.
Thanks. That makes more sense than I can possibly explain on a caucus thread.
Great!
I don't see that as the typical reaction...but if, in your case, it worked, fantastic.
You do realize that, other than the articles I post and any Magesterial source I cite, all posts are IMHO and most definitely FWIW. Therefore, it should go without saying, YMMV!!!!!
;-)
The choir at our Parish sings the Gloria verses, in four part harmony, but if folks want to sing along with the melody, we’re happy to have them do it. We sing the same one, during the whole liturgical season, so they are certainly familiar with it, as they are will all the other parts of the Mass.
Ialways thought Gounod was the Catholic Ave Maria and that Schubert was the one to be avoided.
WELCOME BACK Salvation!
>>I have begun resisting pressure by not holding hands during the Our Father. I just hold my hands up in front of me, put my head down, close my eyes, and pray it.<<
Stop that orans position. In the GIRM it is reserved for the priest and deacon only. It is never allowed for the laity and part of your problem. I left “Lib city” church and know just what you’re going through.
Fold your hands and close your eyes. If someone taps you, ignore it. If it happens again, ignore it again. If they call your name, ignore it. With your hands folded, no one can grab your hand. If they come up to your and ask about it after, Open your eyes wide and exclaim, “I was PRAYING!” That solved my problem. Eventually, a whole group of us (starting with the men who hate the hand holding anyway) folded our hands for the Our Father. I think that if I had stayed, many more would have.
Here is an excellent statement from Karl Keating, of Catholic Answers.com. I wish that we could get this out to all Catholics to make them understand. It DOES take away the meaning in other parts of the mass. You would be amazed at how many people will drop their hands when a few in the pew do.
May 23, 2004, 04:50 PM
Karl Keating Karl Keating is offline
President, Catholic Answers
Join Date: April 1, 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 636
Default Re: Holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer
In America, we shake hands with one another at the sign of peace. In Japan parishioners bow to one another. In other countries there may be other conventions.
At the sign of peace we’re saying “I’m at peace with you” or “I feel reconciled to you.” We convey that through words (”The peace of Christ be with you”) and through an action that is friendly but not intimate or intrusive (since most of those around us likely will be strangers).
This act of demonstrating reconciliation is undermined by holding hands at the Our Father. That prayer comes immediately before the sign of peace. In those parishes where people hold hands during that prayer, they are engaging in an action that is much more intimate than a handshake.
If we hold hands during the Our Father, it undercuts the significance of the following act, since holding hands trumps shaking hands. The sign of peace withers. A prescribed part of the liturgy (the sign of peace) loses much of its significance (much of its “sign value”) when parishioners hold hands at the Our Father.
(It’s good to say “I love you” to your spouse, but if you say that to everyone you meet on the street, your spouse will feel your words have been devalued.)
Another point: In our culture, hand-holding is approved of when adults hold the hands of young children, when boyfriend and girlfriend hold hands, and when married couples hold hands (though this commonly stops a few weeks after the honeymoon ).
We do not hold hands with strangers to whom we are introduced. We shake hands instead. Holding hands in such a situation would be perceived as too intimate. And in some cases, holding hands even suggests something unsavory, as when we see two men holding hands as they walk down the sidewalk.
Can anyone think of any situation, other than at the Our Father during Mass, in which people commonly hold hands with strangers? I can’t, and I think there is a reason: Hand holding is a sign of a certain intimacy. It’s not something we take lightly.
To hold hands with strangers at Mass strikes me as artificial, and it has become a detriment to a proper appreciation of the liturgy. Yes, it is easy enough to avoid, but I think it remains a problem. It is one kind of problem for those who don’t wish to hold hands, and it is another kind of problem (the problem of not understanding the role of signs in the Mass) for those who like the practice.
Gounod was Roman, so far as I know. And I see no problem with the Schubert, which is just about the modern classical standard setting. Unless it is utter bigotry for anything not written by a professing Roman Catholic, I’m really failing to see the point of excluding great works for liturgical use written by Anglicans or Protestants (not at all the same thing).
Thank you so much for that great response. I’ll try it.
When you say you fold your hands in front of you, are you lacing your fingers together and folding them tightly or are you placing your palms together with the fingers straight up?
What are you doing when we say, “For the kingdom, power, and glory are yours...”? Are you lifting your hands up toward heaven?
It's lieder, an art song, not sacred, so technically it's not supposed to be used. I wish people would consider the Faure. Much more beautiful setting.
Brilliant simile. THANK you.
Joyful, joyful makes me vomit. I have learned to hate this tune ...
(Yes, it matches the meter.)
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