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To: Iscool
I see a little problem with your theology here...

It's not my theology, its the theology of +99% of all the Christians since the first century.

If the events of Zachariah 13 happened in 70 A.D., then a third of the Jews called on Jesus and were saved at that time...And we KNOW that didn't happen so Zachariah 13 HAS to be future...

How do you know that? Uninformed speculation? There wasn't a single Jew in the upper room during Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2? Are you really saying that for the the first three years while ALL of the Apostles were in Jerusalem, that few people were brought to Christ? Then for the next forty years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem that very few Jews came to faith in our LORD? The Holy Spirit is that incapable of bringing people to faith? The Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew - was that for the benefit of the Greeks? What do you think of this salutation in 1 Peter?

"To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia..."

Do you have an idea who is meant by "pilgrims of the Dispersion"? Only Hellenists? Again, How do you know?

"The Bridegroom didn't show up in 70 A.D...."

How do you know this? Uninformed Speculation? No one here is talking about the Parousia of the Last Day. You think the LORD can't come in Power? Who was the fourth person in the furnace with Daniel's friends? Who was accompanied by two Angels when the trio appeared before Abraham to warn him of Sodom and Gomorrah?

The passages regarding the Coming of the Son of Man in (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28) is not speaking of the secret "Rapture" because you have the world mourning, and a "great sound of a trumpet" - unless this is really just a "great dog whistle" that only certain people can hear. The tradition understanding of these passages has always been that the LORD would come in power to do away with the physical Temple, judge the Jews who rejected the Messiah and crucified Him, and empower the spread of the Gospel to the entire world. The "gathering of the elect" has clearly been happening "from one end of heaven to the other" now for thousands of years. The word in Matthew 24:31 rendered "angels" in English means "messenger" and could be interpreted that way, yet the symbolism of the "angels" bringing in the harvest is just as well.

Interpreting these passages as a singular future event completely ignores the language steeped in Old Testament history. The "coming on the clouds" doesn't mean literal clouds because it says that "all of the tribes of the earth... will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". Clearly that can't mean the secret Rapture, for it is impossible for all people to physically see anyone coming on the clouds, for one because the earth is round, its dark on half the planet, the clouds themselves would obscure seeing someone, the distance above would make the person too small to see, and for the next ten days Jerusalem's WX forecast is expected to be clear with no clouds.

Here is some of the OT language regarding an overpowering conquering suddenly approaching and overwhelming the enemy as a monstrous dust storm appears out of no where and blows through with great power.

But actually in Revelation we have a passage that tells us that the generation of people He was talking to would indeed see Him in His glory ushering in the Kingdom and ending the Temple system. For some strange reason you posted it, but didn't even bother to read it. For if you did, you couldn't possibly come to the conclusion you did.

Rev 1:7 "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

The same language as our LORD used on the mount of Olives, that He would come in the clouds of power, that "every eye would see Him", and most important, it would come while those who shouted "CRUCIFY HIM" were still alive.

Unless you are willfully ignorant, blind to the Scriptures, or just flat out lying, how can you say, without substantiation that this wasn't 70AD, and when you did post some Scripture, it proved exactly the opposite of your position? Are you really going to day that "even they who pierced Him" doesn't mean "those who pierced Him"? You like literalism, this is about as literal as it gets regarding those Jews who shouted "May his blood be on us and on our children".

What gives?

59 posted on 08/16/2011 7:45:03 PM PDT by The Theophilus (Obama's Key to win 2012: Ban Haloperidol)
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To: The Theophilus
How do you know that? Uninformed speculation? There wasn't a single Jew in the upper room during Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2? Are you really saying that for the the first three years while ALL of the Apostles were in Jerusalem, that few people were brought to Christ? Then for the next forty years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem that very few Jews came to faith in our LORD? The Holy Spirit is that incapable of bringing people to faith? The Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew - was that for the benefit of the Greeks? What do you think of this salutation in 1 Peter?

There's far, far, far too much scripture that you guys have to ignore make these events something of the past...

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Didn't happen...

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Didn't happen...

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Didn't happen...

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Didn't happen...

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Definately did not happen...

Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Did not happen...

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Didn't happen...

Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Definately did no happen, yet...

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nope...Not yet...

Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Didn't happen...

Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Never happened...

Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

Nope...

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Definitely has not happened...But it will...

This is just a few verses...There are hundreds if not thousands of them that show Jesus did not come back the 2nd time...

"The Bridegroom didn't show up in 70 A.D...."

How do you know this? Uninformed Speculation?

Nope...Reading and believing the scriptures...

The tradition understanding of these passages has always been that the LORD would come in power to do away with the physical Temple, judge the Jews who rejected the Messiah and crucified Him, and empower the spread of the Gospel to the entire world. The "gathering of the elect" has clearly been happening "from one end of heaven to the other" now for thousands of years.

Spreading the Gospel to the entire world is not heaven...Gathering the elect from the four corners of heaven is not turning people to Jesus on the earth...

Like I said, you guys are forced to run various scriptures all together that makes a complete mess out of the scriptures...

We spread the Gospel on the earth...The elect in heaven are not people on the earth...Things that are different are not the same...

The gathering of the elect from heaven will happen in one day...NOT thousands of years...

Interpreting these passages as a singular future event completely ignores the language steeped in Old Testament history.

Naw, you're making stuff up...

The "coming on the clouds" doesn't mean literal clouds because it says that "all of the tribes of the earth... will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". Clearly that can't mean the secret Rapture,

Of course it's not the Rapture...

for it is impossible for all people to physically see anyone coming on the clouds, for one because the earth is round, its dark on half the planet, the clouds themselves would obscure seeing someone, the distance above would make the person too small to see, and for the next ten days Jerusalem's WX forecast is expected to be clear with no clouds.

Ever hear of a TV???

But actually in Revelation we have a passage that tells us that the generation of people He was talking to would indeed see Him in His glory ushering in the Kingdom and ending the Temple system. For some strange reason you posted it, but didn't even bother to read it. For if you did, you couldn't possibly come to the conclusion you did.

Well of course I could...I was showing you that had Jesus shown up in 70 A.D., it wouldn't have been a secret...The Disciples would have written about it...Josephus would have written about it...

And shortly thereafter, ALL people of the nations of the earth are required to travel to Jerusalem to worship the King, on his throne, in Jerusalem...

Rev 1:7 "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

The same language as our LORD used on the mount of Olives, that He would come in the clouds of power, that "every eye would see Him", and most important, it would come while those who shouted "CRUCIFY HIM" were still alive.

Nope...Jesus wasn't talking about that generation...And like you said, every eye could not see him if he had come because no one had a TV...

Unless you are willfully ignorant, blind to the Scriptures, or just flat out lying, how can you say, without substantiation that this wasn't 70AD

The substantiation is in the scriptures...

60 posted on 08/17/2011 7:35:49 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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