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To: irishtenor

If we are saved by grace thru election, there is no need for a gospel call at all. There is no reason to command anyone to believe, if believe is given irresistibly to some and denied forever to others.

We do not access God’s grace by election, but by believing (”Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand...”).

Elect is what we are IN CHRIST. Folks tend to ignore that phrase, since it is related to a tribal approach to society. Yet it is one of the most important phrases in the scripture. In Christ, we have everything Christ has. For example: “he chose us in him before the foundation of the world”. Most Calvinists ignore the words IN CHRIST, and turn it into ‘he chose us before the foundation of the world” - but that isn’t what it says.

We are saved by grace thru faith - and saving faith is NEVER called a gift in scripture. Not by grace thru election, but by grace thru faith. The critical issue is not a list of names, but believing: “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Further, we believe to live, we do not live to believe. John 20 says, “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

Believing gives us life. We are not given life so we can believe.

Consider the examples of healing:

Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.

Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.

Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”

The problem with Calvinism is that it is based on our being ‘dead’ in our sins, without understanding what ‘dead’ means. It ignores the verses about our being blind, or slaves, or children, and makes us all totally dead. It ignores the Prodigal Son:

” 17”But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you...

...22But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.” - Luke 15


54 posted on 08/27/2011 4:53:23 PM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers

Explain Romans 8:29-30.
He foreknew... Jesus knew from the beginning of time who would be saved.
He predestined... Jesus determined our destiny before the beignning of creation.
He called... Jesus called us, not we calling God.
He justified... Jesus justified his own by dying on the cross.
He glorified... Jesus give glory to those he knew, he died for, he justified... note also the tense of the words. It isn’t something in the future, but something that has already happened, before we were born, before we died, before we became his children, Jesus glorified us.

We had nothing to do with it.

As for the gospel call... Jesus uses many things to bring his own to him. I have been used as a tool this way to bring someone to Christ. We do not know whom God has chosen, that is why we MUST tell others about Christ.


58 posted on 08/27/2011 5:04:10 PM PDT by irishtenor (Everything in moderation, however, too much whiskey is just enough... Mark Twain)
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