Glenn Beck's "pure personal truth," Part 1 [Real Mormonism]

RenewAmerica.com ^ | Sept. 6, 2011 | Marsha West

[WestwardHo]

Rather than debate Truth: Christianity vrs. Mormonism, simply listen to Glenn Beck”s own words. Over time he has nice things to say about almost any religeon except Islam.
He is a religeous chamelion who picks and chooses what he believes at the moment.
For me, it’s like the pathological liar. How do you know when that person is who they really are?
I prefer the man who is outspoken and steadfast in what he believes even if I don’t agree with him.

[Mamzelle]

Like I said, I wasn't interested in what some people say that Mormons believe. I asked a lot of Mormons the question..."Whence cometh your salvation?" and the answer, several times, lined up with "Belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as expiation for our sins."

And then they decked that in a lot of nonsense, but the core remains.

So, if you want to know how a Mormon is "saved"--ask some Mormons

I have all kinds of problems with Roman Catholicism practice not matching up with scripture, but when I ask a Catholic "whence cometh your salvation" I get a similar response to the above.

And people who spend a lot of time hating on a denomination that is non-violent and patriotic...well, why not go after someone else? Religious practices are inexplicable. Look to their works to see.

[SeaHawkFan]

I think Beck is a Christian and also believe he does not understand Mormon theology; and and the Mormon leadership are in no hurry to educate him on it. If they did, he wouldn’t remain a member for long.

[runninglips]

I have nothing against scripture as written in printed versions of the Bible. In fact I spend much time using a Strongs Concordance, and “The Companion Bible” and believe it is an honest attempt to collate writings that are divinely inspired. There are actually some Bibles that are incorrect in translations, do you believe that people getting information from them are non-Christians? The point is, faith is unproven by writings. The writings only serve to inform and strengthen faith, not prove it. Just because the words put together are the ones I believe are most correct, does not mean they are the only ones that are so. If I am wrong in my belief, and impose it or teach it to another, I am responsible for his error. I will not take that burden on. An honest attempt to inform Mr. Beck, or any other man one to one is fair game. Commenting about it in a way in which he cannot defend himself, is not. Glenn Beck will be judged by his life and faith, as will you and I.

[SeaHawkFan]

Beck became a Christian prior to joining the Mormon church.

Anyone who still thinks most Baptists are tea-totalling is out of touch.

[runninglips]

It is not an attack on Mormonism that I object to. It is an attack on a man that believes in Mormonism. Throw out the personal, and discuss doctrine in a “clean” manner. I will join in gladly.

[Mamzelle]

I find your dismissive self-righteousness not meek or mild at all, so I guess there's enough error to go around. I'd suggest a few Beatitudes, but you can find them if you want them.

I usually avoid FR religion threads for this very reason. I very quickly find hostile cranks and rants and un-gentle behavior. But Beck's name in the title brought me in. He's done more good than a boat-load of Pharisees.

Peace. I'm outta here.

[MHGinTN]

You spittle forth error then tell us you haven’t time to waste with accuracy. And you have the gall to call those opposing the false religion called Mormonism, Pharisees? Read the seventh chapter of Matthew. Jesus was teaching and is still teaching, and you can learn it directly from Him by reading His words as recorded in Matthew 7, instead of continuing to twist what He said to fit your agenda or salve your ignorance.

[Colofornian]

Christian = means belief in Christ — It is absolutely clear that Glen Beck believes in Christ. Anyone who tries to define it otherwise is evil themselves.

Jesus Himself said in Matthew 24 that false messiahs would appear in the end times. You could try the same approach as above...give a dictionary-type definition of "Messiah." and then claim that all who believe in "Messiah" = "Christians." Your problem would then come when you've got believers who believe in the false Messiahs Jesus prophesied about in Matthew 24.

So, they'll, too, be all "Christians."

(I'm afraid you'll flunk consistent logic on that one).

[Colofornian]

Christian = means belief in Christ — It is absolutely clear that Glen Beck believes in Christ Anyone who tries to define it otherwise is evil themselves. You are either with God or against him You have declared by your attempt to redefine this word as against him and are partners with the deceiver.

Even the apostle Paul said there was "another Jesus" in the day of Church of Corinth.

Distinctions between the Mormon Jesus and the historical Jesus of the Bible:

Q1 Isn't the first distinct focus on the Mormon "Jesus" was that he was some unembodied vague "intelligence" even before the Mormon claim that Jesus, like Superman, had parents from another planet?

A Yes. Lds "scriptures" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33 assign ALL of us eternal status as past-tense intelligences. (So we're ALL supposedly as "eternal" as Jesus is)

Q2 Well about what about once the Mormon "Jesus" got to the spirit baby stage? Comparing so-called "spirit babies" born to a mom goddess in heaven, what difference was there between the "Jesus spirit baby" and the supposed rest of us "spirit babies" born to such a mom goddess?

A Mere spiritual birth order--The Mormon Jesus supposedly having been birth first in some "pre-existent world"

Q3 What about the Earthly Origins of the Mormon Christ?

A * Place of birth: Jerusalem (vs. Bible pinpointing it as Bethlehem).
* The Mormon Jesus was twice made a son of God via Mary 'cause Lds say Heavenly Father was the literal paternal father of the conceived Jesus;
* The Mormon Jesus only became God's "only begotten Son" upon conception within Mary. Not so: Jesus, as the Son of God from eternity (John 17:5) -- having shared God's glory before the world was -- is God's one and only Son (John 3:18)...the rest of us are mere "adopted" sons -- if we are indeed His.

Q4 Is the Mormon "Jesus" an exalted spirit baby-become-god?

A As noted above, the lds jesus is not the Son of God from eternity past. That "jesus" worked his way up to godhood status. He's not an exalted God-become-man, but an exalted man-become-God. He was an elder spirit bro of Lucifer. Had you or your brother been "first" in that pre-existent spirit world birth order, he could have been Christ!!!

This "jesus" is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17:5). This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see Philippians 2). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.

Q5 Is the True Jesus Christ a 'Saved Being'?

A In contrast to the Mormon christ -- who is but a "saved being"--a mere creature like dear ole Dad, the true Jesus Christ is eternal!

The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being” (lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257)

“Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234)

Please also see...
* McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”)
* McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72

I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).

Q6 Is the Mormon christ just one savior among many?

Yes. Admittedly this is currently publicly downplayed -- but to Lds directly -- baptism of/for the dead has been played up by Lds "prophets" from Joseph Smith to Joseph Fielding Smith to others as THE most important individual responsibility there is -- wrapping that responsibility up in their own works-driven salvation:

Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith: “But greater than all this, so far as our individual responsibilities are concerned, the greatest is to become SAVIORS, in our lesser degree which is assigned us, for the dead who have died without a knowledge of the Gospel. Joseph Smith said, ‘The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us, is to seek after our dead’…It will suffice here to say that the Lord has placed upon us this responsibility of seeing that our dead receive the blessings of the Gospel. Said Joseph Smith: ‘Those saints who neglect it, in behalf of their deceased relatives, do it at the peril of their own salvation.’” (The Way to Perfection, pp. 153-154)

Lds "prophet" John Taylor: ...we are the only people that know how to SAVE our progenitors, how to SAVE OURSELVES, and how to SAVE our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).

Joseph Fielding Smith again: "... mortals have to BE SAVIORS on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (The Way to Perfection, p. 325)

Taylor again: "We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to BE SAVIORS FOR THEM by being baptized for them in the flesh,, that they may live according to God in the Spirit." (March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)

No, "saviors of the world" are NOT plentiful per the Bible (see 1 John 4:14; John 4:42).

Q7 How were our sins atoned for? By sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane?

A Lds leaders have constantly de-emphasized the cross of Christ by pointing to the garden, where Jesus sweat blood, as the place of atonement.

Q8 Did the Mormon "jesus" really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature?

A No, if you take merely the Mormon Articles of Faith -- Article #2.

Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church:

From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church...
Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN)

The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."]

The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."

Also, the Mormon leaders accuse Jesus of having rather anemic blood:

"Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135)

"Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93).

So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism.

Q9 Was the Mormon Jesus a creature before He was a 'Creator'?

A Yes. The Bible assigns Jesus as being the Creator of All Things & All Beings -- whereas the Mormon "Jesus" is Simply a spirit Creature offspring of Kolobian parents.

Compare that to the Jesus of the Bible Who created ALL things--including all angels...including even Lucifer (see Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16; see even D&C 93:9-10).

Lds general authority Milton Hunter claimed: "Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." p. 51 Milton Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages,

Q10 Why do Mormons downplay the uniqueness of Jesus?

A Because of their unique doctrine that
(a) we were all eternal;
(b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus;
(c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation";
(d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people;
(e) all temple Mormons become gods.
(f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship.

The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!)

Q11 Do Mormons worship Jesus?
A It depends upon which Mormon and which Mormon leaders you talk to. Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie advised Lds STRONGLY in 1982 to not worship Jesus.

McConkie must have seized upon the Mormon "scripture" of D&C 20:17-19 as the key verse that would “guide” his pattern of worship once & for all: and that he should be the ONLY BEING whom they should worship ... as he quoted it to BYU students. (See Our relationship with the Lord)

Christians worship this Messiah, just like God told the angels to do in Hebrews 1:6. And I challenge grassroots Mormons to defy their leaders -- like Lds "apostle" McConkie when they tell them NOT to directly worship Jesus (see Mormon 7:7; 2 Nephi 25:29; 4 Nephi 4:37; 3 Nephi 11:17; 3 Nephi 17:10).

I DIRECTLY pray to this Jesus as Stephen did in Acts (7:59) -- and even as the supposed Book of Mormon disciple characters DIRECTLY and repeatedly did to Jesus in 3 Nephi 19: 6-26...again -- a Mormon "scripture" de-emphasized & ignored by Mormon leaders).

Q12 If Mormons do worship Jesus -- and if they deem Jesus a "separate" god than Heavenly Father, doesn't that mean they worship more than one god?

A Yes.

To show you the extent of confusion this has caused even among Mormon leaders, look at "apostle" McConkie's book, Mormon Doctrine:

"Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)

Q13 Wait a minute. Didn't you just get done telling us that McConkie advised BYU students NOT to worship Jesus in 1982?

A Indeed, he did, after saying the above in 1966! But McConkie was so confused, he would say "3" then "2" in the same book...and then eventually settled on "1" by 1982!

McConkie, on p. 848 of Mormon Doctrine, emphasized worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).

Q14 Doesn't the Book of Mormon contradict even the two-god worship theory of McConkie's?

A Yes. Mormon 7:7 reads: 7And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the bworld, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to ddwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

So you can see how confusing this gets...trinitarian theology is found frequently in the Book of Mormon...including worshiping the Holy Spirit!

Q15 Doesn't it all boil down to how many gods you worship?

A Yes.

Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Joseph Smith's concocted "Nephite disciples" called Jesus “their Lord and God” (3 Nephi 19:18).

And look @ what other Mormon "scriptures" say:
* The D&C says Jesus is God (19:4; 62:1; etc.) Since there’s only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures [for example, the Mormon "scripture" from the Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6)]
* All this means is that either Jesus is a false god or is the one true God. As Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28) -- so Thomas has two gods?

I testify Jesus Christ is my only Lord, my Savior, my God! He is the Only Lord, the Only Savior, the Only True God!

[Utah Binger]

Now you have hurt my feelings!

[svcw]

What makes a Christian has to do with Jesus Christ and belief in his saving grace.

You are correct.

mormonISM does not teach or believe in the Biblical Jesus, they teach and believe in a created being.

mormonISM does not teach or believe in Biblical Grace, they teach and believe in works. In their articles of faith, the say We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. IE works not Grace

As far as alcohol, huh? Even Jesus drank wine.

Charities, sure but they require that you pay them back (hardly charity) and they give to members.

Beck I don't know what good works you are talking about. I used to listen to him, thought he was great informative and very funny. Something happened to him a few years ago and he became shrill and annoying. His radio show was better a few years longer but now is the same as his former TV show. He is interjecting mormonISM into most of what he does now.

[dila813]

You are shifting, the definition when it is clear and absolute It isn't Messiah, it is Jesus Christ Definitions again: mes·si·ahNoun/məˈsīə/ 1. The promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible. 2. Jesus, regarded by Christians as the Messiah of the Hebrew prophecies and the savior of humankind. I must have missed where Glen Beck has declared himself the Messiah.

[panaxanax]

You’ll see here where one of them slipped up and revealed his/her “religion”.

I find it quite amusing where one cult is accusing another of being the same.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2763505/posts

[Colofornian]

Glenn Beck will be judged by his life and faith, as will you and I.

Indeed. Yet the primary judgment has already occurred.

You either already have eternal life -- or you don't -- and is something jumpstarted before one dies. [IOW, eternal life doesn't start in heaven; it begins here...Jesus said as much in places like John 3:36 and John 5:24...and John thereby later said we can be sure about eternal life -- see 1 John 5:10-13].

Just as Jesus says we HAVE eternal life -- present tense -- likewise the apostle Paul says we HAVE peace with God already through Jesus Christ:

25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we HAVE peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ... (Romans 4:25-5:1)

You see, the PRIMARY judgment of our sin was already done on the cross -- that we access through faith delivered by grace (God's gifts).

Jesus highlighted this two verses after the famous John 3:16 verse:

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

The problem is that Mormons like Beck believe that God the Father had many spirit sons beyond Jesus...Lucifer...you...me...all people on earth. And that Jesus is just our elder brother. Hardly a "one and only Son."

The Bible talks about us as being adopted children of God...not sons & daughters who shared glory with all pre-creation.

[QBFimi]

Get a life - all of you. On both sides of this issue.

Concentrate on your own faith walk - and that reminds me - get off your fat butt and go for a walk - you’ll feel better. And while you’re walking, chant this out loud: “ANY pubbie is better for the country than O’Bama. ANY.”

[svcw]

How about you don’t like the discussion get out of the religion forum.

[Colofornian]

Why don’t you ask him instead of refusing

Beck's testimony is already distributed by Deseret Book Co. (owned by Mormon church) & they bill it as a "missionary tool"...

He already promotes the Mormon church...the Mormon "gospel"...etc...

Otherwise, it's a good suggestion...but I haven't heard him back off his Deseret ties, etc....nor promotion of the Mormon church.