Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
I learned about all that stuff long ago from a friend who studied pagan history. I was shocked then to learn how much of pagan practices had infiltrated churches. With all of that on the internet now there is no excuse for people to not know.
Really creepy when you look closer at some of these symbols. Makes one so grateful for the faith we have and who that rests in.
The more I see the more I shiver for those who have been so deceived. I read further about the Heart thingy...that is depicted in so much of their art work of Mary....they actually dedicate a full month to this worship. Just reminds me of the pagan worship of gaya or guya today...
The problem I see with the internet is there are endless “traps” out there which can entice people into the wrong things if they are not gounded in Gods word...
The enemy of mens souls has many sites in which to charm people and oftentime with false hopes and lovey dovey type talk ...which appeals to those who are lonely and lack a social life. Again online to trip people up.
I find the internet no different then out in the physical world. There are good parts and bad parts. While it may be easier to find the bad it’s also easier to find the good.
How you “view” the consecrated Host is a matter of your ignorance. You want to believe in Christ, believe in His words: “this is My body”.
No you are not, unless you are in sacramental communion with Him.
I see you might still have residual issues left from your bad experiences with the churches you were first affiliated with
I was baptized Russian Orthodox and switched to the Roman Catholic Chruch as an adult. I love the Orthodox Churches and have no doubt that we will be one and under single papacy within a generation or two. I have no negative experience with the Orthodox.
I visited some Evangelical Protestant communions of faith regularly, accompanying my formerly Protestant wife and enjoyed that as well. Protestants are well-meaning people robbed of authenitc Christianity by their pastors. Excepting the Anglicans, as communions they are too far gone to rejoin the Church. My plea to the Protestants is to examine their faith in the light of the Holy Scripture and study the Holy Catholic Church, repent of the error of the so-called Reformation and come join us as the body of Christ.
The new nature comes from the seal of baptism, and in case of the Catholics, with the chrysm of confirmation. However none of that guarantees salvation of anyone because we are judged by our works (Mt 25:31-46).
Consider:
war in them a good warfare, Having faith and a good conscience, which some rejecting have made shipwreck concerning the faith. (1 Timothy 1:18-19)
You're nailed to something too?
You still haven’t told me whether that’s His earthly flesh body or somehow part of His transfigured body. He originally said that about His earthly body but has moved on from that. Have you guys tried to stick Him back in that body or ignored His words and made it His transfigured body?
Which are only relevant as teaching there is a particular judgment at death for believers resulting in either immediate entrance into Heaven or purgatorial purification.
1021.. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith.
1022 either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately592
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031..As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire.
1032..Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them
..all go through particular judgment (“the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is”, 1 Cor 3:13), but not all have anything burnable in them so the purifying fire for them does not occur (“If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.”, v14). The fire as a test is there, but not the purifying fire.
In order to arrive at this in your quest to make 1Cor. 3 refer to purgatory, you have taken the text which is about giving of rewards at the day on the Lord, and taken the text, “the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire,” (1Cor 3.13) and apparently made this to refer to the particular judgment which occurs at one's death, with those who pass through unscathed going to Heaven and those who have character defects enduring purgatory, yet the day of the Lord is only purgatory in a declarative sense, as referring to what happened prior to the day(?).
However, this would be contrary to the text as translated, in which it presents the testing by fire as occurring on the day of the Lord for all believers, and gaining rewards for those whose works are not burned, while those whose works are burned — and which works are things which he built the church with and which should not have been burned up — suffer loss of rewards, in contrast to the gaining of rewards, but which does not negate his salvation despite this. (And is do not see this as teaching two distinctive classes as if one lost nothing while others lost everything, but as teaching insomuch as one's work endured or perished so shall his reward be, “according to his own labor.”)
>the day of Christ, the judgment seat of Christ, at the Second Coming of Christ, is purgatory in “application,” declaring the result of the actual purgation of dross of sins which commences at death?<
It is making manifest the purgation that had already occurred, like the text in 1 Cor 3 actually says.
“what it actually says is “the day shall declare it,” but to separate this disclosure from actually occurring by fire which burns up the chaff during the time period of the day of the Lord then you have to change this to past tense. “If any man's work shall be [shall have been] burned, he shall [have] suffer [suffered] loss... This is different than 1 Cor. 3:15 actually referring to being purified by fire at that time (versus being declarative of a past test) by burning off their inferior works, as typically the Catholic contention, and which it seemed you were arguing.
The general understanding of the Church is that it is the Particular Judgment where one’s place of eternal dwelling is sealed. The Last Judgment is understood as a point when the world as we know it ends completely, and those saved receive their glorified bodies.
Not only, but it is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Revelation 11:18) See below*.
there is no point in delaying the particular judgment and the necessary purgation till the End of Time.
The problem is with your premise. 1Cor. 3 is not speaking of a particular judgment at one's death, , nor of a necessary purgation of character defects. Rather, contextually it is the judgment seat of Christ in which believers are rewarded according to how they built the church, and final salvation is also realized even by those who lost what they should have kept, which was not character defects, but works which reflected such.
The passage in 1 Cor 3 taken in isolation could indeed be read as if the purgation be occurring at the Last judgment, but that would not be consistent with the rest of the Scripture on the last things, and does not follow from the text with necessity.
Actually, only by reading it in isolation can you come with your exegesis, as what is “consistent with the rest of the Scripture on the last things “ is that while at death one's eternal place is settled, the judgment of works does not occur until the Lord's return, not only for believers but all mankind. See below*.
Indeed, since it is our works in life that determine our destiny, there is no point in delaying the particular judgment and the necessary purgation till the End of Time.
But there is a final judgment, in which God “will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace,682 and again, 1Cor. 3 is not speaking about the “particular judgment” at death, but the giving of rewards at His coming, while as regards your first statement, being rewarded for works does mean that is the instrumental cause of salvation, which is an effectual faith, and your statement is only allowable in the sense that works are what testifies to saving faith, faith being inseparable as far as cause and effect, disclosing “acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love,678 by which kind of faith one is washed sanctified and justified at conversion because of Christ's blood and righteous, not his own. Thus a faith that manifests works (presuming opportunity) determines our destiny. And which justification is what enables works by the redeemed to be positively rewarded, though all deserve Hell, versus by grace earning eternal life because they deserve it, while unbelief abandons one to judgment for his sins, which is what he earns. (Rm. 6:23)
As regards the judgment, Israel was cut off because of unbelief, and that is the ultimate reason why souls are damned and judged, but as this is manifested by works, and thus they will be sentenced according as they manifested unbelief. But while damnation is earned, eternal life is a gift, believers being justified by a God-given kind of faith which will effect the obedience of faith, not merely good works, and are judged as saved in the light of their works, and rewarded according to them, which is what 1Cor. 3 describes.
Leaving aside the relationship of faith and works, which we had the pleasure of discussing before...,
Discussing is an understatement, and here i was responding to your statement with a summation.
>if there is a type of purgatory, then it can only be speculative, and 1Cor 3 in particular cannot be dogmatically defined as referring to it.<
This is not how the Catholic Church operates. The dogmas of the Church come from the bosom of the Church in her historical clarification of the deposit of faith received by the Apostles...We don’t derive dogmas from the scripture but rather both the scripture and the dogmatic formalisms derive from the original deposit of faith and are in harmony.
Again you are expanding the scope of this contention, to which i respond that in reality, Tradition, Scripture and history can only mean what she says, and assurance that a decree is infallible is not based on the strength of the weight of evidence and arguments behind her decrees, but while this may be presumed, assurance is given because Rome has spoken in accordance with her infallibly defined scope and subject-based formula.
Rome does have an effective centralized authority over her church, though she claims universal jurisdiction and even coercive powers, and she has some core teachings which require assent of faith, and which provide interpretive parameters for teachings outside these, but there is also much speculation in Roman Catholicism, including as to what all has been infallibly defined, because no Roman Catholic can provide you with an infallible canon of all that has been infallibly defined (all of Trent, or just part, etc.).
In addition, accepted decrees can lack debt and precision, as is substantially the case regarding purgatory and 1Cor. 3, and are still subject to some interpretation by her non-infallible theologians. And the bulk of RC teaching comes from the non-infallible magisterium, in which some dissent may be allowed, although this also is subject to some interpretation. Very few verses in particular have been infallibly defined, and her doctrinal and parameters and basic interpretive principles yet allow substantial speculative interpretation by Catholics, who overall have much liberty to interpret Scripture in seeking to support Rome, as they understand them.
Those who hold to SS can have a centralized formal authority, but which authority is restricted to their church, while such overall evidences they hold to certain basic core truths, and thus they contend with cults which deny them (and effectively hold to “sola ecclesia”), while allowing much speculation, if limited, outside these basics. They do not claim assured infallibility as per Rome, but must rely upon the manifestation of the truth in seeking to persuade souls, based upon the only transcendent material source which is assuredly perpetually infallible, and which provides for the formal magisterium.
We probably exchanged on this before, and what Rome is precisely saying on 1Cor. 3, and whether it does conform to Scripture is the issue here.
► *Much of this i thought i had posted in response to 957, but i do not see it in the posts.
The “day shall declare it,” of 1Cor. 3:13 (and the Douay has “the day of the Lord”) focuses first on leaders as building the church, because that is what the Corinthians were focusing on,"I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos..," (v. 4) thinking of men above which is written, (1Cor. 4:6) resulting in unnecessary sects, but which clearly refers to all all believers, not only both clergy and laity.
Paul thus reminds them they are only laborers, but God gives the increase,(v. 8) and that he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." (v. 8)
The Corinthians are God's building, (v. 9) and Paul's "work," (1Cor. 9:1) which foundation Paul laid, (v. 10) that being Christ, (v. 11) and another buildeth thereon, and how one buildeth thereupon determines the reward. (vs. 12ff)
And that this refers to all is confirmed in the light of the fact that it is the day of Christ when this judgment occurs, (1Cor. 1:18; 3:13) and which is at His coming.
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2)
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)
"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." (1Cor. 4:15)
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 1:7)
"And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away." (1 Peter 5:4)
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:12)
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Matthew 16:27)
"For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?" (2Thes. 2:19)
"..and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." (1Cor. 3:8)
“As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (2Cor. 1:14)
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” (Rv. 22:12)
"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:" (Malachi 3:2)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.." (2Cor. 5:10)
"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Rm. 14:12)
“His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire,“ “who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire,” “His eyes were as a flame of fire. “ (Rv. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12)
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1Cor. 3:13-15)
At that time all will face the judgment in which works are rewarded based upon the fire test.
In addition, the last days (plural) is the period of the church age, manifested at Pentecost, (Acts 2:17) leading up to the day of the Lord, which is a period encompassing His return and judgment. And in which there are apparently two resurrections, that of the “resurrection of the just,” (Lk. 14:14) that being the “resurrection of life,” (Jn. 5:29a) which is the “first resurrection:” "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:5,6) The second resurrection is the resurrection of damnation,” (Jn. 5:29b) after the 1,000 years** and the last test for men is finished, and then the sea gives up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivers up the dead which were in them, and they are sentenced according to their works. (Rv. 20:13-15)
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)
Those effectually believe on the Lord Jesus have eternal life life, and if they die in the Lord they shall go to be with the Lord, (2Cor. 5:6-8; Phil. 1:23; 1Thes. 4:17) but their rewards are not given out until that day of the Lord. Likewise those who die in their sins shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth upon them, yet their degree of punishment is not meted out until the Great White Throne judgment.
The appropriative means of salvation is faith, but it is a kind of faith that effects Scriptural manifestation, (Rm. 2:13; Heb. 5:9) and thus works testify to and confirm a believers salvific condition, (Heb. 6:9) and thus believers who are saved are also judged according to their works for rewards. But the works themselves do not earn them eternal life, which is a gift on Christ's expense and credit and possessed by the faith described, (Rm. 3:9 — 5:1) whereas damnation is earned. (Rm. 6:23) The real cause of the latter is unbelief, just as it kept Jews out of the Promised land, (Heb. 3:19) to die in the wilderness, but at the end they are sentenced according to their degree of accountability, relative to light and grace received. (cf. Lk. 10:12,13; 12:48)
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12)
**The Lord's return also seems to refer to the period when the Lord reverses the curse of blindness upon the natural branches (what remains of them) and they believe and are tried during the millennium. It is understood that the Jews who survived the Tribulation populate the earth during the millennium, during which time the Temple will be built, which is not the same according to Ezekiel, and David will be king under Christ, (Ezek. 37-48) and nations who will not worship the Lord will be chastened. (Zech. 14:17,18) The devil will be bound, showing man to be sinful in yet another type of government, and at the end when the devil is loosed then most of the inhabitants will follow the devil to make war on the holy city, and fire consumes them. Then comes the final judgment. (Rev. 20:7-15)
It is clear from verses 13 and 14: id=f there is no stubble, there is nothing to burn off. I just posted the relevant catechisms, too.
The issue is not that some have no works (that they built the church with) that burn, but where is it taught that some in purgatory do not need purification by purgation. The relevant catechisms do not teach this, but they teach the contrary:
1022 “Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification,” or immediately, -or immediate and everlasting damnation.”
1030 “All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.”
1031.. “for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire.”
Thus purgatory is only those who need to undergo purification or certain lesser faults, being imperfectly purified. If one is pure they need no purification.
>wresting of texts <
I don't think I did any "wrestling". In fact you yourself seem to agree that one way or another the 1 Cor 3 describes a cleansing fire that occurs after death and precedes entry into Heaven.
Its "wresting," but as said, the contention was whether 1Cor. 3 is about purgatory purifying the saved by burning off their inferior works in order to gain acceptance into Heaven, with purgatorial suffering being for those who died before their purification in this life was complete. Reducing the text to be about a postmortem cleansing fire which precedes entry into Heaven ignores contention about the nature of the suffering and the loss, and its purpose, and its time of this event period. Making it into being merely declarative of a prior test, and a loss of character defects themselves, and accomplished by suffering commencing at death, is what i referred to as “wresting” (forcing it to conform) — especially the latter.
But may it edify some. Holiness unto the Lord.
*defects* my foot.
Sin is sin.
It’s either forgiven by God, not to be counted against us any more ever, or it’s not.
There is no middle ground.
While it may feel good to the person who is bearing condemnation and guilt to think that they are paying for their sins, it’s NOT Scriptural. All that does is soothe the conscience, doing NOTHING in the meantime to actually remit the sin.
One of Satan’s biggest lies is the guilt he saddles us with over the sin that God has forgiven, keeping us in bondage to ever increasing demands to do more, to suffer more, to whatever else more to try to clear our conscience.
Our response to guilt over sin committed ought to be, *Yeah, I did do that. I sinned but it’s covered by the blood. Take a hike Satan, I’m not listening to you any more.*
If God isn’t going to credit it to our account, we are in no position nor do we have the right to keep beating ourselves up over it.
Our issue with the Son is settled. Satan's only chance with us is watering down our witness to others. That's it.
Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Yet the RCC teaches that people need to keep making sacrifices denying what is clearly written in scripture.>
But getting souls out of purgatory has long furnished an income stream to the Catholic church by extortion of money from the living to benefit the dead.
Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
If you had asked previously and I ignored the question, I apologize.
He originally said that about His earthly body but has moved on from that.
It is His Body (also blood, soul and divinity) in all eternity -- that is, glorified, -- under the accidents of bread and wine. The Mass, whether it is said today, following His resurrection or prior -- as in the Last Supper -- is a reference across time to the pre-existing and eternal Christ.
so you have been deceived to believe. The transfigured body has no flesh and blood. To claim “real” flesh and blood is to put Jesus back into His pre death and resurrection body. There is no sacrifice without blood so the RCC cannot be putting His transfigured body into that wafer.
:
[13] εκαστου το εργον φανερον γενησεται η γαρ ημερα δηλωσει οτι εν πυρι αποκαλυπτεται και εκαστου το εργον οποιον εστιν το πυρ δοκιμασει [14] ει τινος το εργον μενει ο εποικοδομησεν μισθον ληψεται [15] ει τινος το εργον κατακαησεται ζημιωθησεται αυτος δε σωθησεται ουτως δε ως δια πυροςThe Greek verb does not match the English verb tenses 1:1, and I don’t know how you would express the burning and receiving/suffering differently based on two future events even in English. The Day (it doesn’t actually say “of the Lord”) is when the testing is manifest (φανερον), it says nothing of the time of the testing itself, δοκιμασει.
1Cor. 3 is not speaking of a particular judgment at one's death
Says you. It sure is judgment and it sure is particular. Some question remains when the testing itself is occurring.
nor of a necessary purgation of character defects
The purgation is of defective work done in good faith: stubble laid on the foundation of Christ.
Rather, contextually it is the judgment seat of Christ in which believers are rewarded according to how they built the church, and final salvation is also realized even by those who lost what they should have kept, which was not character defects, but works which reflected such.
How is it “rather”? You are describing the particular judgment and the purgatorial passage that sometime follows correctly.
there is a final judgment, in which God “will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace
Yes, the rewards are given at the Final Judgment, however our focus is the test by fire in 1 Cor which precedes it (one cannot make manifest something that has not occurred yet).
and assurance that a decree is infallible is not based on the strength of the weight of evidence and arguments behind her decrees
True and false. The Church does not have an illogical faith, so the dogmas of the Church are all consistent between themselves, with earlier beliefs and with the scripture. However, the Church does not prove her dogmas from scripture as that would be a fallacious circular reasoning. The Church reveals the dogmas as she herself discovers them in the nascent form in the original deposit of faith.
accepted decrees can lack debt and precision, as is substantially the case regarding purgatory and 1Cor. 3, and are still subject to some interpretation
Yes. No one argued differently. What we know dogmatically is really very little: there is a process of purgation through which some souls go through on their way to heaven. The Western Church has more elaborate set of pieties and practices regarding the purgatory than the sister Churches in the East.
that this refers to all is confirmed…
Thank you. That is what I have been arguing: that the special context of the “church builders” – even if one thinks it persists to the “every man” passage, -- still cannot apply in its entirety only to clergy.
In addition, the last days (plural) is the period of the church age…
That is interesting but I don’t see how it relates to the issue of Purgatory. Your discourse there seems at first reading tainted with the highly speculative Protestant beliefs, whereas the Church avoids such speculation, especially as regards “two resurrections”.
The relevant catechisms do not teach this, but they teach the contrary:
How is it contrary? Canon 1030 says “All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification”, thus separating those who are “still imperfectly purified” and the rest.
Reducing the text to be about a postmortem cleansing fire which precedes entry into Heaven ignores contention about the nature of the suffering and the loss, and its purpose, and its time of this event period
Well, yes. You are correct: 1 Cor. 3 does not spell out the precise nature of the Purgatory. We don’t know the “nature of the suffering and the loss”. The timing of it we do know because “it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27); and “this day thou shalt be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), -- and so the individual judgment and entry into heaven are not delayed till the Second Coming. We don’t, however know the duration of the purgatorial cleansing, nor even whether there is a sense of duration to it. The purpose we also know: to allow entry into heaven of those not sufficiently purified in life.
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