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Purgatory: Purifying Fire or Fatal Fable?
Proclaiming the Glory of Jesus Christ in Mexico ^ | 10/29/2011 | Mike Gendron

Posted on 10/29/2011 3:31:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7

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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
I would have to say they are in the 3rd heaven not the 7th heaven. In Revelation John see Jesus and then is taken to a higher part of heaven for the rest of the vision. And as said John has said by the Holy Spirit that there is no one in heaven.Are you calling John and the Holy Spirit liars?
441 posted on 10/31/2011 4:56:29 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: cva66snipe

Preach it.

Freedom in Christ. Something those in bondage will NEVER understand.


442 posted on 10/31/2011 7:46:14 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: guitarplayer1953; cva66snipe
cva7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 00253 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

gp1953: IT DOES NOT SAY HE SAW ANYONE.

Actually, the passage DOES.

Acts 7:54-56 54Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. 55But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

443 posted on 10/31/2011 7:55:25 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
I posted after that by my mistake that he saw the glory of God not God himself. the prophet Isiah was protected by God and only saw the hind quarters and was filled with woo.
444 posted on 10/31/2011 7:59:23 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: narses

Romans 8:38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Romans 8:39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

That organization type can try all it wants but it does not change a thing for the truth that is in the Bible and my perfect salvation by the blood of Christ who finished the cross and finished forgiveness for all sins past, present, future without the help of men. It is impossible for me to be separated from Christ and impossible for me to 'lose' my salvation which is secured by Christ. Doctrines which that organization fails to comprehend.

That organization aught to read its own so-called early church fathers, for they reproof and correct it simply using the Bible truths. Purgatory is none existent, it truly is only inside the imagination of that organization.

The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment. (“Epistle of Barnabas”) Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)=Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!' (“Second Clement” 17:7) - Clement of Rome (150AD)

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3) “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)

We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain. Tatian (160AD)

We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one...or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)- Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)

...Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send 'spiritual wickednesses,' and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10) The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . [I]t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2) - Irenaeus (189AD)

All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment) - Clement of Alexandria (195AD)

These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)

Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)

Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged--the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire--that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. ("Apology" 48:12) - Tertullian (197AD)


445 posted on 11/01/2011 7:09:53 AM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth
Bibletruth wrote:

It is impossible for me to be separated from Christ and impossible for me to 'lose' my salvation which is secured by Christ.

Come now, friend... do you really think it's impossible to throw one's salvation AWAY, after back-sliding (or what we in the "organization" call "mortal sin")? St. Paul did:
Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Cor 10:12) [...]that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead [...]
...and the writer of Hebrews does, as well:
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


That organization aught to read its own so-called early church fathers, for they reproof and correct it simply using the Bible truths.

Let's not be silly, here! The Bible hadn't even been compiled in its entirety until at least two centuries after the last Apostle died (i.e. the 300's A.D.); the only "Bible" to which those Holy Fathers of the Church could refer would be the Old Testament! No... those good men held and preserved the teachings of the Apostles, handed down faithfully by Oral Tradition and by the very life of the Church, and taught accordingly.

Purgatory is none existent, it truly is only inside the imagination of that organization.

All right... you've stated your emphatic personal opinion. Now, your task is to prove that opinion with sound reasoning and evidence. I'd also add that the very Fathers whom you quoted were faithful members of that "Organization" which you seem to despise, and they said so, quite boldly. (Heavens, you couldn't have found more faithful defenders of the Papacy, the Eucharist, etc., if you'd tried! Doesn't that make any difference to your case?)
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God ... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.
(Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 6, 110 A.D.)

Let that Eucharist be held valid which is offered by the bishop or by the one to whom the bishop has committed this charge. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.
(St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1, 110 A.D.)

I desire the Bread of God, the heavenly Bread, the Bread of Life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; I wish the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.
(St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 7, 110 A.D.)

Be ye careful therefore to observe one Eucharist (for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup unto union in His blood; there is one altar, as there is one bishop, together with the presbytery and the deacons my fellow-servants), that whatsoever ye do, ye may do it after God.
(St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadephians, 4:1, 110 A.D.:

446 posted on 11/01/2011 3:23:43 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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