“God hardened Pharaoh’s heart after Pharaoh’s had already decided, many times, in very obvious circumstances to ignore God. This did not determine Pharoah’s fate, Pharaoh’s did.”
As a Calvinist I don’t essentially deny that. I agree that Pharoah hardened his heart (the Bible says he did). I also believe that God hardened Pharoah’s heart (the Bible says He did).
How can both things be true? I don’t know. I don’t know how Jesus turned water into wine, either. But if the Bible says God hardened Pharoah’s heart - He did.
“Calvinism is “another gospel”.....If you doubt, why do we call it “Calvinism”? “
I might say why do we call your persuasion “Arminianism?”
Because it is a shorthand term for some specific beliefs.
I could say I believe mankind is totally lost with no possibility of saving himself, that he is elected to salvation by God before he fulfills any particular condition, that Jesus died specifically for His chosen people, that no one can resist God, and that anyone who is truly saved can never be lost.
Or I can say I’m a Calvinist. It’s shorthand.
You are no doubt a Trinitarian, an inerrantist, an Arminian, a dispensationalist. None of these terms is another gospel. They are shorthand words, that’s all.
Of course I have read Romans, more times than I can count, and as you know Romans describes predestination/election more succinctly than any other book in the Bible, although most if not all books refer to it.
Summed up so beautifully in Romans 9:
“What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?”
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”
“God hardened Pharaoh’s heart after Pharaoh’s had already decided, many times, in very obvious circumstances to ignore God. This did not determine Pharoah’s fate, Pharaoh’s did.”
As a Calvinist I don’t essentially deny that. I agree that Pharoah hardened his heart (the Bible says he did). I also believe that God hardened Pharoah’s heart (the Bible says He did).
>>> You can’t pour water twice out of the same boot. If Pharoah’s fate was due to his rejection of the truth (see Romans chapter 1) then God’s further hardening of his heart did not affect his destination, rather just his behavior here on earth (by not letting the Jews free, pursuing them, etc).
How can both things be true? I don’t know. I don’t know how Jesus turned water into wine, either. But if the Bible says God hardened Pharoah’s heart - He did.
>>> Why do you imply that “hardening a heart = Fate?” This is a assumption!!! Can you prove it?
“Calvinism is “another gospel”.....If you doubt, why do we call it “Calvinism”? “
I might say why do we call your persuasion “Arminianism?”
>>>> I don’t call myself an Arminian, I don’t know anybody who does, and you just ascribed a whole bunch of beliefs onto me....Why would you want to do that? You describe yourself as a Calvinist, therefore you should defend Calvinism. There are more than two schools of thought. To not be Calvinist is does not imply anything else than not accepting a proof that is not self evident from the scriptures. Arminianism was (just as Calvinism was) a shakey structure built upon going further than the scripture supports.
I could say I believe mankind is totally lost with no possibility of saving himself, that he is elected to salvation by God before he fulfills any particular condition, that Jesus died specifically for His chosen people, that no one can resist God, and that anyone who is truly saved can never be lost.
Or I can say I’m a Calvinist. It’s shorthand.
>>>> Jesus died FOR ALL MANKIND. Some of us choose to accept his gift.
This is biblical — can you refute it? I can list dozens of scriptures that cite God’s willingness to save all mankind. So if God is all powerful, they why can’t he? Because he has by his own will, given mankind the ability to choose, we call it FREE WILL. Please try to show where God only (from time of creation) intended only his chosen be saved.
You are no doubt a Trinitarian, an inerrantist, an Arminian, a dispensationalist. None of these terms is another gospel. They are shorthand words, that’s all.
>>> I can prove the Trinity from the bible, I can prove the the source of scripture (beyond a doubt), and I am NOT a dispensationalist as YOU view it.
God does NOT change his mind. However, there are different covenants. So you might say I am a believer that Jews are saved differently (but through the same person, Jesus). This because Jesus gave us a new covenant, in his blood, vs the old covenant.
Of course I have read Romans, more times than I can count, and as you know Romans describes predestination/election more succinctly than any other book in the Bible, although most if not all books refer to it.
>>> You see through calvinistic glasses. I see through sola scriptura. You should not read what you want to into the passages to fit your view.
Summed up so beautifully in Romans 9:
“What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
>>> This says “man” has no right to question God! This is a different assertion that where does his salvation come from! Can’t you see you are taking that verse and extending it way, way beyond what it says? It’s like your child says “I don’t want to go to bed, why should I go to bed” and you say, “I am your parent, you should not question why”. God has the RIGHT to have mercy on whomever.....The question is who? What does the bible say about WHO God wishes to SAVE? Here is ONE of many instances in which God says he wants to save ALL.
<< 1 Timothy 2 >>
King James Version
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time
>>> You need to know, the verse below you quoted says “what if” — it’s doing so because it’s showing that YOU have no right to question God — it’s NOT making the assertion — if it WERE true, the author would come right out and SAY IT!!!! —— The author would out and out say it!!!!! Again, you are reading into a passage something that is NOT there.
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?”
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”