Posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:54 PM PST by Iggles Phan
Produce the Scripture that supports your position.
Amen!
Well, you’re wrong. God’s promised to Abraham’s seed are everlasting, including those according to the flesh.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
What is so difficult about understanding that . . . otherwise . . . Christ’s EVERLASTING PROMISES TO THE CHURCH would be worthless, too.
. . . sounds like a lot of folks understanding has been darkened . . . frightful.
What Unmitigated nonsense pretending to be a rational assertion.
There seems to be a lot of rather obvious things in Scripture y’all seem to have huge blinders about.
I don’t expect differences on the Rapture to send folks to hell either.
However, Christ Himself said
He was coming back for those
WHO WERE LOOKING FOR HIS RETURN.
I suspect 'WE" aren't going to be hanging out with Him when He returns in the clouds.
PS. This isn't going to be a great place to be during the Great Tribulation.
Perhaps even more frustrating to those remaining behind, the cause and purpose of the Great Tribulation is all about Israel, not the Church.
This is particularly ironic because so many of those left behind will be those who are not Jewish, but will insist they are the true Israel, and will also perchance inherit the cursings directed at Israel. It isn't surprising that in their natural man, they will hide out in the rocks and curse God.
Meanwhile their believing brethren won't be around to suffer the same punishments.
But yet, your religion claims that it is the Kingdom...The Catholic Church is the Kingdom...
Jesus repudiated this whole idea of an earthly carnal kingdom of God and transferred its expectations to the eternal rest of the saints in Heaven in a purified and Spiritual manner of life.
Do you really think that God will set up a ‘Christian Police State’ in the future? That sounds like spiritual communism to me.
So the idea of Jesus reigning as King is a police state??? And heaven is strictly a spiritual 'state of mind', eh??? You mean like this?
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And yet you guys claim Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron right now...
HaHaHa...You are so far out they're losing you on the radar...
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
I'm thinking there we be no amount of preparation that will get people prepared for what the Tribulaiton has in store for those who are still here...
How are you going to prepare for having to starve to death??? Or watching the arms and legs ripped off your children to try to get you to deny Jesus???
Isaiah talks of mothers killing and eating their own children during that period of time...You can prepare for that???
And those are just some of the things one would have to prepare for from dealing with the anti-christ...After that, if you are still alive, you have to contend with the plagues sent by God...
Having the advantage of knowing what's in store for the people of the Tribulation, the logical preparation for that time would be mass suicide...
But since the Tribulation is a judgment on the Nations of the Earth who rejected Jesus and persecuted his chosen people, the Jews, I see no evidence that those of the body of Christ will be there...
Scripture tells us we will escape the wrath to come...
HaHa...Most of you guys can't even find scripture, let alone find something in it...
It's not a matter at all of finding it in scripture...It's clearly there...It's a matter of believing what is found...
Well, there is a spiritual aspect to it that obviously escapes you guys...
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Would seem a person seeking God would yearn to know the spiritual things given freely from God...
Call on the Lord Jesus to save you, and he will show you things in his scriptures that are out of this world...
And yet that same Paul who so many claim revealed a 'get out of 'Dodge' early doctrine states clearly what is required to 'survive' the tribulation in Ephesians 6: the whole chapter but in very specific literal terms verse 12
For we wrestle NOT against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God,
that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
AND God Himself had Amos tell us what 'food' was going to be in short supply, NOT for these flesh bodies but for the 'soul' .... Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that *I* will send a famine in the land, NOT a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, BUT of hearing the words of the LORD:
Christ Himself said the first sign of His return was mass deception, by those coming/claiming in and of His Name.
There is no scripture that hints or states that anyone will escape that 'great' tribulation unless their flesh bodies return to the dust from which it came and their soul returns to the Maker that sent it. The deception is NOT having sealed in the mind which 'Jesus' shows up first. Even Paul says that it will not be until the last trump (7th) that the 'real' LORD and Savior returns and upon HIS return ALL flesh will be changed. So if the inhabitants on this earth are still walking around in flesh needing bread and water the 'real' Saviour has not returned.
Oh Paul reports the last trump as the benchmark for the return of our LORD and Saviour in ICorinthians 15:52. Paul says in verse 21 that he was going to show us a 'mystery'... We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed.
There is no place in the whole of the WORD that hints/suggests or states that Christ is making two trips at the end of this 'world', which actually means 'flesh' AGE.
Yes it does which is surprising to hear coming from a Catholic...It means 'age'...The church age...The time of the church...The times of the Gentiles...
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Christians...Only Christians...The dead who are not in Christ will not be raised...
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Christians...Only Christians...Only those who are alive who are Christians will be raised...All other live people will stay here...
And where will we go???
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
That's the church right there...Getting married...Right smack in the middle of the plagues taking place on earth during the Tribulation...
Read the entire chapter...Even then, maybe you won't get it because it is spiritually discerned but it's all right there...
Christians, along with their bodies and the bodies of the Christians who have died are raised to heaven...Jesus does not come to the Earth...No one sees Jesus, not even Christians (until we are in his presence)...
And of course there will be live people here during the Tribulation...Live, hungry people...
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
And if you don't worship the beast, you won't eat...You won't buy gas for your car...You won't ride a bus...
The deception is NOT having sealed in the mind which 'Jesus' shows up first. Even Paul says that it will not be until the last trump (7th) that the 'real' LORD and Savior returns and upon HIS return ALL flesh will be changed. So if the inhabitants on this earth are still walking around in flesh needing bread and water the 'real' Saviour has not returned
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The scripture doesn't say the 'last trumpet'...It says the last trump of a trumpet...And it won't be one of the 7 trumpets blasting during the Tribulation...
The context of the entire chapter deals with Christians...Those in Christ...When these people are raised, there will be plenty of live, non-Christians roaming the streets...And the cemeteries will be full of dead non-Christians...
Christ Himself said the first sign of His return was mass deception, by those coming/claiming in and of His Name.
But Jesus said real Christians will not be deceived...Only those who think they are Christians and are not...That's why Jesus gave this command:
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
There is not a (YOU) search the scriptures in the original...It's a command to search the scriptures...Do not listen to your church...Search God's word for yourself...
But anyway, there will not be any Christians following the wrong Christ in the Rapture...It won't be a bus pulling up with someone saying, 'all aboard'...
We won't have any choice but to go...I may be sitting in the bathtub at the time...When Jesus says, 'come up hither', I'm outta here with a head full of shampoo...
I agree. The reality revelations, that many on this thread have received, come from Our Lord Jesus Christ to those with a broken spirit that are empty of themselves. It comes to individuals not groups. It is a relationship. The flesh will never come to the truth. It only comes in the Spirit.
Matthew 5:3 (NIV) “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
This happens a lot on FR. Some of these posters may not even be human beings. I do not know but, Thank God, God knows.
WHO is/are the Gentiles? Paul says those in Christ are neither 'spiritually' speaking neither Jew nor Gentile. Paul spends a great deal of writing explaining that IN Christ all are part of the family of God. So this 'Times of the Gentiles' by necessity is speaking to something specific.... might look around this globe and note how 'few' are believers in Christ????
We are also 'forewarned' about 'Jacob's trouble' which seemingly runs parallel to the 'Times of the Gentiles'? Right?
Tribulation????
Might check out that word 'world' as to its usage and why Paul and even Christ use that word over and over again with the phrase 'before the foundation', as in Ephesians 1:4. The theory of the 'church' being the point of the usage will not fit with the meaning of the literal meaning of the word 'world'.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Paul establishes that he knows the 7 trumps of Revelation in ICorinthians when he said at the 'last' trump ALL flesh would be changed. So it is NO surprise that he would refer to that very same trump in Thessalonians. But it is Peter's words that tell us in IPeter 3 and 4 what Christ did while in the tomb. Salvation was offered to all born since the days of Noah,up to the Crucifixion, and they most certainly were dead first. So there is no surprise that the dead in the flesh would 'rise' first.
AND that is the subject of IThessalonians chapter 4 as noted in verse 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow NOT, even as others which have no hope....
Only the complete disregard of the clear and simple subject Paul plainly states get to 'church' age or the security blanket of rapture.
Christians...Only Christians...The dead who are not in Christ will not be raised... 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Christians...Only Christians...Only those who are alive who are Christians will be raised...All other live people will stay here...
I realize that is what some doctrine claim, but we are told by the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, that all return to the Maker that sent us through this flesh age and those that overcome are separated from the non-believers at least until the close of this 'flesh' age.
And where will we go??? Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. That's the church right there...Getting married...Right smack in the middle of the plagues taking place on earth during the Tribulation...
Actually there are 'two' tribulations, the first takes place before Christ returns at the end of the flesh age. That means that every soul created has fulfilled what Christ told Nicodemus was required to 'see' the kingdom of God. Now Christ did not tell Nicodemus that ALL would enter the kingdom of God, only that as Christ passed through this flesh age born of woman, so would all that would be allowed to see the kingdom of God. Now as it is Written flesh cannot 'see' the Heavenly Father, only in the 'spirit' body. And the final judgment fire of perdition has not yet been 'created' to dispose of those that do not love the Heavenly Father.
Read the entire chapter...Even then, maybe you won't get it because it is spiritually discerned but it's all right there... Christians, along with their bodies and the bodies of the Christians who have died are raised to heaven...Jesus does not come to the Earth...No one sees Jesus, not even Christians (until we are in his presence)... And of course there will be live people here during the Tribulation...Live, hungry people... Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. And if you don't worship the beast, you won't eat...You won't buy gas for your car...You won't ride a bus...
Revelation states without question there are 7 trumps. The last trump of the trumpet is number 7. Just as there are 7 'churches', surely that does not mean there are 7 church 'ages'? And John that wrote down the words of Revelation was taken in 'spirit' to the LORD's day as to what things will look like on that 'day'. And on that Lord's day there are still 7 churches defined by their various doctrines. One could say John writes down what the 'tribulation' is and it is not until near the end of the book the wedding takes place. Peter says that 'one' day with the LORD is as a thousand years, so that is going to be a long engagement from the 'first' day of the day of the Lord until the wedding.
The deception is NOT having sealed in the mind which 'Jesus' shows up first. Even Paul says that it will not be until the last trump (7th) that the 'real' LORD and Savior returns and upon HIS return ALL flesh will be changed. So if the inhabitants on this earth are still walking around in flesh needing bread and water the 'real' Saviour has not returned
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
So is this Paul's doctrine or was he inspired by the Heavenly Father to pen these words?
The scripture doesn't say the 'last trumpet'...It says the last trump of a trumpet...And it won't be one of the 7 trumpets blasting during the Tribulation...
The only way to get to this is to pull a Bill Clinton and compartmentalize the WORD as IF the Heavenly Father was clueless as to what He was going to have John spend so much time writing down about 1 through 7 trumps.
The context of the entire chapter deals with Christians...Those in Christ...When these people are raised, there will be plenty of live, non-Christians roaming the streets...And the cemeteries will be full of dead non-Christians...
Way back in Ecclesiastes Solomon was directed to write the purpose of flesh and he writes in chapter 12 the flesh will return to dust and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it. Christ even asked Nicodemus a master of Israel in John 3 why he did not know about this. It is not a new instruction that the flesh body purpose is limited for this particular heaven/earth age as Peter takes great pains to explain in IIPeter 3... and Peter even says the prophets knew as well.
Christ Himself said the first sign of His return was mass deception, by those coming/claiming in and of His Name.
But Jesus said real Christians will not be deceived...Only those who think they are Christians and are not...That's why Jesus gave this command:
Ah actually Christ said Matthew 24:22 (right after He quoted Daniel 12:1) And except those days (of Daniel) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days (of Daniel) shall be shortened. and
verse 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;
insomuch that, IF it were possible, they shall deceived the very elect.
NOT one word about starvation/famine for flesh food here, but instead a warning of a religious revival to deceived IF possible the very elect. Why now wouldn't the very elect be Christians? So Christians would still have to be right here on this earth IF they are going to be tempted by a religious revival.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. There is not a (YOU) search the scriptures in the original...It's a command to search the scriptures...Do not listen to your church...Search God's word for yourself... But anyway, there will not be any Christians following the wrong Christ in the Rapture...It won't be a bus pulling up with someone saying, 'all aboard'... We won't have any choice but to go...I may be sitting in the bathtub at the time...When Jesus says, 'come up hither', I'm outta here with a head full of shampoo...
Who then is going to be here to stand against the fiery darts of the devil that Paul says we are to wearing the whole armour of God? By the way this 'beast' is none other than the 'devil' tossed down to this earth (Revelation 12:12 for those who have no clue who the antiChrist is) being allowed to tempt us just as he tempted Christ as described in the beginning of Christ's ministry.
Ezekiel 3:1-3 and Revelation 10:8-11 come to mind. The 'truth' is sweet as honey in the mouth, but observing the events unfold do indeed make the belly bitter.
“After that, if you are still alive, you have to contend with the plagues sent by God...”
Ah, but the Children of Israel excaped the plagues sent by God on the Egyptians...they were taken through. Noah was taken through, not out. Those who were not in the ark were taken out.
Everything in God’s Word has to be taken together, in context. We like to pick and choose to make our ‘theological point’, but that is not how God wrote it.
Example...
Matt 27:5 “(Judas)...went and hanged himself.”
Luke 10:37 “...Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.”
Trite examples, perhaps, but that is what many have been doing on this thread. Much also has to do with interpretations of God’s Word...Daniel’s 70 weeks, for example.
And one other thing...too much is being made of the ‘differences’ in the discussion on this thread. Everyone has to be ‘right’ and force beliefs on everyone else. It is time to lighten up. We believe what we believe regarding this, and we are not going to change minds with the silly ‘attack arguments’ being put forth here. And another thing, our beliefs on this subject are not eternal life threatening...though there are some posting on this thread comments that would make it seem so. At this point, the continuation of this discussion has become an ego trip for those posting.
Now, for one last, parting comment...my great grandfather in England was a friend of Darby and follower of his teaching. My grandmother and two of her brothers who came to this country knew Darby, and I knew them well. I knew others who had personally known Darby. I grew up under the pre-tribulation Rapture teaching. I know it well...maybe better than some of the posters on this thread promoting it. I grew up with a Bible in my hand, or in my lap, listening to some excellent teachings. The Lord has led me to examine those teaching, and has, a few times, shown me what He wanted to show me about them. I yielded to His leading. In many cases it ‘solidified’ what I had been taught, and in a few cases it resulted in change.
Those who have not challenged what they have been taught during their time for Christian growth are missing much of what the Lord may have for them. Be challenged, not as the challenger of others beliefs, but as the challenger of your own beliefs and interpretations. Be blessed.
Paul did not say last trumpet...You can't change scripture to line up with your theology...Then it becomes your theology, not God's...
Salvation was offered to all born since the days of Noah,up to the Crucifixion, and they most certainly were dead first. So there is no surprise that the dead in the flesh would 'rise' first.
Christians have overcome already...We don't wait to the end of the age to find out...
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Actually there are 'two' tribulations, the first takes place before Christ returns at the end of the flesh age. That means that every soul created has fulfilled what Christ told Nicodemus was required to 'see' the kingdom of God. Now Christ did not tell Nicodemus that ALL would enter the kingdom of God, only that as Christ passed through this flesh age born of woman, so would all that would be allowed to see the kingdom of God. Now as it is Written flesh cannot 'see' the Heavenly Father, only in the 'spirit' body. And the final judgment fire of perdition has not yet been 'created' to dispose of those that do not love the Heavenly Father.
Not without scripture, you don't...
Revelation states without question there are 7 trumps.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
That puts to rest your theory of one trumpet and 7 trumps of the one trumpet...
The last trump of the trumpet is number 7. Just as there are 7 'churches', surely that does not mean there are 7 church 'ages'? And John that wrote down the words of Revelation was taken in 'spirit' to the LORD's day as to what things will look like on that 'day'. And on that Lord's day there are still 7 churches defined by their various doctrines.
You can't just make this stuff up and expect bible believers to go along with your fantasy...
John was taken ahead to the Lord's Day...The Great Tribulation...And then what??? What did John see???
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, Rev. 1-3
John is standing there in the Tribulation and is told to write which he has seen in the past, ie., the church age... and the things which are, Rev. 4-19
And then John is told to write the things which are, right now...And againg, John is standing in the Tribulation...
and the things which shall be hereafter; Rev. 19-22
John is then told to tell of the events after the Great Tribulation...
Peter says that 'one' day with the LORD is as a thousand years, so that is going to be a long engagement from the 'first' day of the day of the Lord until the wedding.
Actually, the wedding takes place near the front of the 'day', thousand years...
Here's the major portion of that thousand year period...
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
There's the seventh day, the one thousand year reign of Jesus on Earth...
The deception is NOT having sealed in the mind which 'Jesus' shows up first. Even Paul says that it will not be until the last trump (7th) that the 'real' LORD and Savior returns and upon HIS return ALL flesh will be changed. So if the inhabitants on this earth are still walking around in flesh needing bread and water the 'real' Saviour has not returnedAgain, it is talking about Christians...Christians only...
Again...
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
verse 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;
insomuch that, IF it were possible, they shall deceived the very elect.
It doesn't say it is possible...It says if it were possible...But it is not possible...
NOT one word about starvation/famine for flesh food here, but instead a warning of a religious revival to deceived IF possible the very elect. Why now wouldn't the very elect be Christians? So Christians would still have to be right here on this earth IF they are going to be tempted by a religious revival.
But the Christians won't be deceived...Jesus is pointing out that the evidence will be so strong, that unless you are a Christian you will be deceived...
Who then is going to be here to stand against the fiery darts of the devil that Paul says we are to wearing the whole armour of God? By the way this 'beast' is none other than the 'devil' tossed down to this earth (Revelation 12:12 for those who have no clue who the antiChrist is) being allowed to tempt us just as he tempted Christ as described in the beginning of Christ's ministry.
Apparently, you don't believe as well that the anti Christ is here now...Tempting us as we speak...
Naw, the Israelites were 'covered' by the shed blood...They were still there when the plagues took place...
There is no promise to be covered from the wrath during the Tribulation...
And, crossing the Red Sea is a perfect picture of the Rapture...When we go up, Jesus is going to provide an opening in the 'deep, up there in the sky...Scripture talks about it but it's a pretty 'deep' subject...
Noah wasn't taken thru anything...He rode on top of the destruction...Those that died in the flood were not taken out...They drowned...
But the whole point in these discussions is not just to educate people on what God teaches, but to show that what they are taught in many cases doesn't line up with the words of God...
The point is to show that God's written word is the final authority for mankind...
If a Christian will read and believe God's word without adding to, taking from or changing it in some way, he/she will come out on top...
And getting unbelievers to realize that God's word is the only Truth, they maybe will see the true way to salvation...
I won't apologize for a second for what I am doing here on FR...
“But yet, your religion claims that it is the Kingdom...The Catholic Church is the Kingdom...”
Answer:
This is an interesting, yet revealing reply.
Instead of dealing with the verses that I provided, showing that God has no plan for a carnal kingdom on earth, this author chooses to change the topic and make an assumption about my denomination.
On both accounts this author is 100% wrong.
What kills me is that he then goes off ‘high fiving’ himself as if this reply actually ‘wins’ the debate for his side. I guess in this author’s mind, self-esteem is more important than honest discussion.
Heh???
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