It's posting history seems to have disappeared as well.
IATZ
Posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:54 PM PST by Iggles Phan
My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.
That's correct.
In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."
... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.
Are you confused?
Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?
1. The Historic View.
This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.
1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:
"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."
It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.
2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).
In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:
"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."
The difference couldn't be farther apart.
Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.
Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.
Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.
In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.
My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!
For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.
“Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And yet you guys claim Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron right now...”
Answer:
Hang on a minute. Let’s get this passage in full context instead of ‘cherry-picking’ verses.
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
So ... you believe that Jesus is carnally going to ride a Pegasus-type horse, carnally have a dagger in His mouth, carnally have fire-eyes, and carnally start stabbing people?
I have to respectfully disagree. Revelation is filled with Apocolyptic symbolism and this is one of the more obvious passages. I think you have an obsession of carnal fulfillment.
The earth is not God’s Kingdom.
Jesus said before Pilate and the Sanhedran, “My kingdom is not of this world.”
Jesus says the earth is clearly His footstool, not His Kingdom.
Matt 5:35 - Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Acts 7: 49 - Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Paul did not say last trumpet...You can't change scripture to line up with your theology...Then it becomes your theology, not God's...
For the record as to what Paul did say, so there is no misrepresentation as to the 'subject' of trumpet; trumpets; trumpets; and trump. (Now John uses the word trumpeters in Revelation 18:22 and that is found in the Strong's as the Greek word #4538)
"ICor 15:50 Now this I say , brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Trump, trumpet, trumpets, as used in the whole of the new Testament are all the same Greek word #4536.
The word 'trump' is used two times and only by Paul in ICor 15:52 and ITh 4:16. Both places are the Greek word # 4536 assigned by the Strong's.
The word 'trumpet' is used 9 times in the New Testament. ALL are the same Greek word assigned #4536 in the Strong's. Christ used the word two times in Mt 6:2 and Mt 24:31. Paul uses the word 'trumpet' three times found in ICor 14:8, ICor 15:52 and Heb 12:19. John uses the word 'trumpet' 4 times, Rev 1:10, Rev 4:1, Rev 8:13 and Rev 9:14.
Only John uses the word 'trumpets', same Greek #4536 from Strong's and these two are found in Rev 8:2, and Rev 8:6.
What the Greek word assigned the #4536 in the Strong's means: From the Strong's salpizo, from 4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation): a trumpet: -trump (-et).
Paul says at the LAST trump 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . SO how many 'trump(s)' would there have to be for there to be the LAST trump... and why does Paul say this is pertinent information to 'shew' a mystery. Certainly has nothing to do with a 'get out of Dodge' early ticket.
Salvation was offered to all born since the days of Noah,up to the Crucifixion, and they most certainly were dead first. So there is no surprise that the dead in the flesh would 'rise' first.
Christians have overcome already...We don't wait to the end of the age to find out... 1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Well, no doubt some have 'overcome' as Revelation 15:1-4 the over-comers sing the song of Moses. I have never heard any of the followers of the 'rapture' doctrine even talk about singing this song.
Actually there are 'two' tribulations, the first takes place before Christ returns at the end of the flesh age. That means that every soul created has fulfilled what Christ told Nicodemus was required to 'see' the kingdom of God. Now Christ did not tell Nicodemus that ALL would enter the kingdom of God, only that as Christ passed through this flesh age born of woman, so would all that would be allowed to see the kingdom of God. Now as it is Written flesh cannot 'see' the Heavenly Father, only in the 'spirit' body. And the final judgment fire of perdition has not yet been 'created' to dispose of those that do not love the Heavenly Father.
Not without scripture, you don't...
Well, where to begin?
Revelation states without question there are 7 trumps.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. That puts to rest your theory of one trumpet and 7 trumps of the one trumpet...
Ah, 7 angels with 7 trumpets is not in dispute. There are 7 trumps, the 7th trump being the LAST trump wherein Christ returns. This is not a complicated math equation, we know how many 'trumps' and how many 'angels' and we are given in specific each 'trump' and what that quavering or reverberation announces. Actually Christ Himself in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 uses HIS own WORDS to describe the 'events' that are 'appointed' to take place. What Christ says is that the days of Daniel are shortened for the elects sake, but everything that Daniel said was going to take place is still going to take place but in 'quick' time. And Daniel does not hint, suggest, or state for the record the 'church' will 'get out of Dodge' before the 'action' begins.
The last trump of the trumpet is number 7. Just as there are 7 'churches', surely that does not mean there are 7 church 'ages'? And John that wrote down the words of Revelation was taken in 'spirit' to the LORD's day as to what things will look like on that 'day'. And on that Lord's day there are still 7 churches defined by their various doctrines.
You can't just make this stuff up and expect bible believers to go along with your fantasy...
Well time will tell what is fantasy and what is reality.
John was taken ahead to the Lord's Day...The Great Tribulation...And then what??? What did John see??? Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, Rev. 1-3 John is standing there in the Tribulation and is told to write which he has seen in the past, ie., the church age... and the things which are, Rev. 4-19 And then John is told to write the things which are, right now...And againg, John is standing in the Tribulation... and the things which shall be hereafter; Rev. 19-22 John is then told to tell of the events after the Great Tribulation...
John does NOT one time mention the greatest escape since the beginning of this 'age'. Wonder why, since supposedly only Christians pay attention to the New Testament, that John would be told to write down things that were to take place IF there was NOT going to be anybody around that 'believed'.
Peter says that 'one' day with the LORD is as a thousand years, so that is going to be a long engagement from the 'first' day of the day of the Lord until the wedding.
Actually, the wedding takes place near the front of the 'day', thousand years... Here's the major portion of that thousand year period... Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. There's the seventh day, the one thousand year reign of Jesus on Earth...
Yet the temptation or 'tribulation' of all mankind must take place before any wedding invitations are sent.
The deception is NOT having sealed in the mind which 'Jesus' shows up first. Even Paul says that it will not be until the last trump (7th) that the 'real' LORD and Savior returns and upon HIS return ALL flesh will be changed. So if the inhabitants on this earth are still walking around in flesh needing bread and water the 'real' Saviour has not returned
Again, it is talking about Christians...Christians only...
According to John 3:16 only those are considered 'overcomers', Scripture does NOT compartmentalize the MIND and the WORD of the Heavenly Father that sent us this instruction manual.... BUT since He and only HE is the judge as to the minds of all His children, I do NOT spend much time thinking about or talking about WHO has or has not overcome. After all given the state of Christanity as penned by John in regard to the status of those 7 churches on the first 'day' of the LORD's day all but two were warned to change their ways.
Again... Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Paul speaks to what this state of 'dead' is in ICorinthians 15. One can physically be alive in the flesh body but be deader than dead spiritually. AND as we are shown in the parable of Lazarus and the 'rich' man both had returned to the Maker that sent them, Lazarus was seen the the bosom of Abraham, (that would make Abraham alive in spirit and a Christian) while a gulf separated the 'rich' man from the Christian family. Christ said Matthew 10:28 Fear NOT them which kill the body, (flesh) but are not able to kill the 'soul': but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
verse 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF it were possible, they shall deceived the very elect.
It doesn't say it is possible...It says if it were possible...But it is not possible...
The reason it is NOT possible is said because TIME was SHORTENED... Matthew 24:22 AND except those 'days' (of Daniel) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those 'days' (of Daniel) SHALL be shortened.
NOT one word about starvation/famine for flesh food here, but instead a warning of a religious revival to deceived IF possible the very elect. Why now wouldn't the very elect be Christians? So Christians would still have to be right here on this earth IF they are going to be tempted by a religious revival.
But the Christians won't be deceived...Jesus is pointing out that the evidence will be so strong, that unless you are a Christian you will be deceived...
Ah, Jesus said there would be those who come in His name were deceived and the leaders of selling the deception. The prophets called it sheep trafficking.
Who then is going to be here to stand against the fiery darts of the devil that Paul says we are to wearing the whole armour of God? By the way this 'beast' is none other than the 'devil' tossed down to this earth (Revelation 12:12 for those who have no clue who the antiChrist is) being allowed to tempt us just as he tempted Christ as described in the beginning of Christ's ministry.
Apparently, you don't believe as well that the anti Christ is here now...Tempting us as we speak...
The 'spirit' of against Christ is here thriving and infecting by the hour. BUT big sugar daddy, the old dragon, the serpent, the accuser, the destroyer, and a legion of other roles has NOT yet been tossed down literally on this earth. That takes place according to as it is Written in the 6th 'trump', the 6th 'seal' and the 6th vial.... you know 666????
As for looking for the word “Rapture”..it's simply no different then calling ‘Christmas” Christmas. We celebrate his birth on this day ...but when He came it was a matter that He was born, the promise had arrived...nobody announced it was Christmas.
I think people get hung up so much on what they can't see that they miss entirely the truths of that which they can see ...and therefore, once again, miss the high calling of God in Christ Jesus...stuck on distractive issues which are not issues at all. A favorite tactic of the enemy of men's souls.
Just a bit of sidebar here....I have often wondered why we don't look closer at the procession, which will be literal and visable, with Jesus Christ leading thousands upon thousands. What a spectical this will be as all eyes observe throughout the world...truly an astounding event!
To imagine 'heaven opens' is profound beyond measure...and The procession goes on for hours. Magnificent depiction of our conquering King and all the saints with Him ...
You just described the Mass.
I will say goodbye now.
cough! cough!....Oh Not Eveee-en Close!...In fact diametrically opposed....A parade of old men wearing dresses with music that sounds like a funeral is underway is NOT a victory parade...it's a death parade as Mass clearly depicts...I serve the risen Christ.
The Pope shuffling under an umbrella, held up by more guys in dresses... to put a goblet in a little box and bowing down before it is just plain nonsense IMO. Though I realize it makes catholics feel special. Did you ever look inside that little box....the one I saw they forgot to do the inside as the outside...nasty looking.
As you can see I don't at all buy into the catholic mass..in fact I see it as sacrilegious in every way. The Christ I serve has risen and is seated at the right hand of God.....and in no way did He drink his own blood and body the night He instituted we do this "In remembrance" of Him. Catholics really botched that up and then some. I've read all the scriptures and argument's concerning catholics position on mass and all the rituals practiced throughout it...if anything it convinced me all the more the catholic church is in serious error by this practice...and more.
It's a lie for any who claim they'll be protected for the scriptures are very clear the majority will die for their faith. The remnant of Israel however will be protected just as it's written.
I wasn’t referring to the Kingdom. I was referring to how easy total destruction has become. Technology has brought that about. What used to (Biblical times) take an army years now takes a few men a few minutes.
It's posting history seems to have disappeared as well.
IATZ
Strange logic going on here!
It ACTUALLY 'forces' folks to LIE to their children about the Easter Bunny!
(We adults ALL known that the EB merely delivers the eggs, and does NOT color them!)
No need to get all hot, dealing with an admitted dingbat!
And? these verses explain the rapture, how?
Or is it just normal verse slinging having nothing to do with the basic rationalization of the rapture theory which appeared less than 200 years ago?
http://reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/rapture.htm
The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Teaching
Whenever a Christian encounters a doctrine that has not been taught by anyone in any branch of Christ’s church for over eighteen centuries, one should be very suspect of that teaching. This fact in and of itself does not prove that the new teaching is false. But, it should definitely raise one’s suspicions, for if something is taught in Scripture, it is not unreasonable to expect at least a few theologians and exegetes to have discovered it before. The teaching of a secret pretribulation rapture is a doctrine that never existed before 1830. Did the pretribulation rapture come into existence by a careful exegesis of Scripture? No. The first person to teach the doctrine was a young woman named Margaret Macdonald. Margaret was not a theologian or Bible expositor but was a prophetess in the Irvingite sect (the Catholic Apostolic Church). Christian journalist Dave MacPherson has written a book on the subject of the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture. He writes: “We have seen that a young Scottish lassie named Margaret Macdonald had a private revelation in Port Glasgow, Scotland, in the early part of 1830 that a select group of Christians would be caught up to meet Christ in the air before the days of Antichrist. An eye-and-ear witness, Robert Norton M.D., preserved her handwritten account of her pre-trib rapture revelation in two of his books, and said it was the first time anyone ever split the second coming into two distinct parts or stages. His writings, along with much other Catholic Apostolic Church literature, have been hidden many decades from the mainstream of Evangelical thought and only recently surfaced. Margaret’s views were well-known to those who visited her home, among them John Darby of the Brethren. Within a few months her distinctive prophetic outlook was mirrored in the September, 1830 issue of The Morning Watch and the early Brethren assembly at Plymouth, England. Early disciples of the pre-trib interpretation often called it a new doctrine.”2
John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), who was the leader of the Brethren movement and the “father of modern Dispensationalism,” took Margaret Macdonald’s new teaching on the rapture, made some changes (she taught a partial rapture of believers while he taught that all believers would be raptured) and incorporated it into his Dispensational understanding of Scripture and prophecy. Darby would spend the rest of his life speaking, writing and traveling, spreading the new rapture theory. The Plymouth Brethren openly admitted and were even proud of the fact that among their teachings were totally new ones which had never been taught by the church fathers, medieval scholastics, Protestant Reformers or the many commentators.
The person most responsible for the rather widespread acceptance of Pretribulationalism and Dispensationalism among Evangelicals is Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921). C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. This Bible, which espoused the doctrines of Darby in its notes, became very popular in Fundamentalist circles. In the minds of many a Bible teacher, fundamentalist pastor and multitudes of professing Christians, Scofield’s notes were practically equated with the word of God itself. If a person did not adhere to the Dispensational, Pretribulational scheme he or she would almost automatically be labeled a modernist.
Today there is a whole plethora of books advocating the pretribulation rapture theory and the Dispensational understanding of the end times. Given the fact that among professing Christians the pre-trib rapture is still wildly popular, a comparison of this theory with scriptural teaching is warranted. We will see that the typical arguments offered in favor of this theory are in conflict with the Bible.
I'd given up on this thread long ago, anyway.
All I know is that Mimi Rogers was smokin’ hot in that flick. Made me wonder why Tom Cruise never indulged in her at any time during their marriage.
I am not gonna take it anymore! The rapture may be today! The Lord Jesus Christ will return for His bride at any moment. :)
The rapture might be today! :)
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