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To: count-your-change; Cronos
There in those verses from John you quote you'll note that it was Jesus’ enemies that made an accusation that Jesus was making himself equal to the Father by Jesus saying he was doing what his Father had been doing all along, working, “My has kept working and I keep working”.

You didn't see what Jesus did to reinforce that he considered himself exactly what they had said about him. He said that they should honor him in the same way they honor the Father. True, these things like raising the dead and judging everyone are things given him. That doesn't mean that at one point Jesus or the Son of God did not have them and then at another point he did. They are offices that pertain to who he is. Like the firstborn from the dead and the firstborn over all creation. The latter doesn't mean he was created first before the rest of creation but that he has preeminence and authority over all creation. This point is hammered again and again throughout the gospels and the various letters. The other, JW idea, that Jesus was a demiurge, is nowhere to be found. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.

Again, to draw you back to something both you and the other guy never focus on: Elizabeth, the wife of a Jewish priest, acknowledged that Mary was the mother of her Lord. The only Lord for a Jewish priest was Yahweh, maker of heaven and earth, the king of the universe, the one who delivered their people from Egypt, who gave Moses the law, who established his covenant with Abraham and later with the other patriarchs. You just cannot get around that.
109 posted on 12/12/2011 9:12:21 AM PST by aruanan
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To: aruanan
As you say:
“He said that they should honor him in the same way they honor the Father”.

In the preceding verses Jesus says the reason judging ability was given him was in order that all may honor him just as they honor the Father. It is the same principle Jesus set forth in saying that how one treats his brothers is how he is being treated. We recognize that principle today, that how a representitive is treated is how the one that sent them is being treated as in a country's ambassador.

You said:
“True, these things like raising the dead and judging everyone are things given him. That doesn't mean that at one point Jesus or the Son of God did not have them and then at another point he did”.

What? That is the sense of the term “given”, something passes from one to another. If Jesus already had the ability to judge and resurrect how and why would such be given him? No, that grant or given here doesn't mean grant or given just makes no sense in any language.

“Again, to draw you back to something both you and the other guy never focus on: Elizabeth, the wife of a Jewish priest, acknowledged that Mary was the mother of her Lord.”

Yes, let's..before I have demi urge of some kind, maybe a mega urge too.

I assume a Jewish priest would be familiar with Psalm 110.
According to the NAB, vs. 1 says,

“The LORD says to you, my lord, “Take your throne at my right hand while I make your enemies your footstool”.

One is Yahweh, the other the Messiah. The two are not the same. You remember Jesus’ question at Matt. 22:43?

111 posted on 12/12/2011 11:36:03 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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