Posted on 12/14/2011 11:10:27 AM PST by NYer
Your post was as well thought-out and beautiful as it was true. Very well done. And please do not interpret my praise for your post as me worshiping your post....
Shroud of Turin ping.
Do you KNOW for certain that the man is Christ?
Satan is the chief of deception... he loves it when men worship golden calves
The “medieval forger” theory is looking less and less convincing.
I was lucky enough to see it in 1978, on the last day of it’s exposition. I really did not know what to expect. At first it was hard to see, simply because you are looking at a negative image, seeing the blood stained areas the brought it into focus! It was an amazing sight. When the Shroud was first photographed, the negative image came out positive, what middle ages artist could even know how to fake that.
As we walked back to our Hotel after dinner we could see the Scientists setting up their equipment in the Cathedral in hope of unraveling it’s mysteries.
Quote scripture all day long and I won’t disagree.
The point I was making was that NO one on this thread I’ve seen has advocated worshipping the shroud or anything else “graven”.
The hateful comment and self righteous superior attitude directed toward people that find this interesting and possibly even inspiring is more closely aligned with Satan than God.
This is really an interesting comment.
Look at the following seven words – what do they mean?
I didn't say she stole my money.
I didn't say she stole my money - someone else said it
I didn't say she stole my money - I sent the report in an email
I didn't say she stole my money - I only implied it
I didn't say she stole my money - I said someone did, not necessarily her
I didn't say she stole my money - I considered it borrowed, even though she didn't ask
I didn't say she stole my money - only that she stole money
I didn't say she stole my money - she stole stuff which cost me money to replace
Seven words, seven different meanings. And people will bet their eternal salvation on the belief they get the words of Scripture correct every time, as in “This is my Body.”
And all this and the fact:
1) Jesus NEVER gave instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book.
2) Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, Jesus never told His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book.
3) Nowhere in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book.
4) The Bible does not have an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible. Where did the table of contents come from?
Apparently, he's also an idiot.
Only an idiot would leave a cloth confirming the crucifixion for modern man to see if he was intent on man disbelieving the crucifixion. He's so much of an idiot that he gave future technology (even by today's standards) to medieval forgers so they could make the resurrection and Christ's glory manifest in an imprint only explainable as beyond our ability to duplicate.
Now, once again... NO ONE IS WORSHIPPING THE SHROUD! With every examination it becomes more and more likely it is the actual burial cloth of Christ and Christ seems to have thought it necessary to give us this image. Certainly, He didn't have to do this, did He? We appreciate the gift and marvel at His Glory.
The whole moronic argument they present all falls apart if they could possibly admit the shroud isn’t worshiped. That is why they hold on with wicked tenacity to the on-going lie that Christians worship the shroud - without that blatant falsehood (even though those who she claims to worship it say unequivocally that they do NOT) there is no occasion for The Superior Dance.
I’m not familiar with it, but I must say I deplore reading scientific papers and legal papers that are phrased so weirdly that I can’t understand what they’re trying to say. Can’t anyone just be simple and brief?
It’s a miracle all right - well kinda.
The front image is 6’8” long, the back 6’10”
The head is too small for the body and appears to have been “pasted” on (large separation line at neck)
If the shroud was draped around the body head-to-toe, why isn’t the top of the head shown. The intervening space is too short and the images appear hinged.
The real miracle is that it appears to be the world’s first photograph. Capturing images was widely known even in Roman times, but the image soon faded. Someone found out how to “set” the image.
Whatever it is, it sure ain’t the miracle the “Shroudies” claim.
Bless you for a reasoned post on this thread; and the use of facts instead of ridiculous assertions.
In other news, the IPCC says man-made global warming is real.
The Biblical Evidence for Relics & its Protestant Detractors
...The frequent Protestant objection and opposition to veneration of images or of relics (as in this case) is as silly as saying that a person raising their hands towards God in worship and praise during church is worshiping the ceiling. That person may not have an image of God in their mind, but they use the symbolism of "upwards" as being directed towards God (yet God is everywhere, so they could just as correctly stretch their arms downward or sideways).We are physical creatures; God became man, and so by the principle of the Incarnation and sacramentalism, the physical becomes involved in the spiritual. Icons and relics are both based on these presuppositions.
2 Kings 2:11-14: “And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it and he cried, ‘My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!’ And he saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and rent them in two pieces. 13 And he took up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. 14 Then he took the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, saying, ‘Where is the Lord, the God of Elijah?’ And when he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other; and Elisha went over.”
Acts 5:15-16: “. . . they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.”
Acts 19:11-12: “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.” (cf. Mt 9:20-22)
Guess you've never been to Turino, Italy. They built a huge cathedral dedicated to the shroud. And yes, people pray in front of it, light candles, kneel before the image (it hasn't been on display in decades), etc. I'm not saying the shroud is or isn't real. I agree with you that it has a facinating history, but some people do treat it as a venerated, holy object.
Do you KNOW for certain that it is NOT?! How many shrouds bearing images of a crucified man exist? How many shrouds exist of a crucified man with with scourge marks? The man of the Shroud was savagely flogged. Whatever was used, it is consistent with a Roman flagrum, a whip of short leather thongs tipped with bits of lead, bronze or bone which tore into flesh and muscle. There are dozens upon dozens of dumbbell shaped welts and contusions, the type of wound that the flagellum would have caused. There is blood from the flagellation and even a bit of tissue thought by some medical experts to be a torn-out bit of muscle. From the angles of attack – the way the marks fall on the man’s back, buttocks, and legs – it seems that man was whipped by two men, one taller than the other, who stood on either side of him.( John 19:1-2).
Anyone familiar with scripture can put the pieces of this puzzle together and recognize that the shroud image is unique and probably was created by Christ. ( Shroud Story ).
Ultimately, the shroud is not an object of worship but, rather, an image that reminds us of the ultimate sacrifice made by Christ, our Savior. As such, it merits our attention, reflection and introspective prayer of gratitude and appreciation. If anything, it is an object of the Greatest Love one can have for mankind.
Your comments are always a good reminder of what an ugly set of superstitions Protestantism is.
His word tells us to ask. ;-)
Oh, I thought you were Christian and since I identified myself as a Christian, I took that as a given that we both know the Scriptures affirm wisdom.
“Catholics love mysticism.. so this fits right into catholic (sic) beliefs..”
I’m not sure exactly what you mean by this.
The Body of Christ indeed!
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