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To: count-your-change
A father begets his son and Jesus is so described, only begotten, Up till there we agree, but I of course do not agree that begotten means created (in fact I would say "begotten NOT made") -- John 8:58 “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham [a]was born, I am.”, 1 john 4:9

I will point out that the Gospel of Matthew begins with "Abraham begat Isaac, Isaac begat Jacob.... Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ” -- note it does not say the Jesus was begotten by Joseph. What we do know is as we read in John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and [a]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [b]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. -- since "through Him all things were made" -- it stands to reason that He did not make Himself -- All things were made through Him, clearly indicating that He, Jesus Christ was not a created being.

288 posted on 12/22/2011 8:06:36 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Cronos
Throughout the Scriptures representatives of Yahweh or Jehovah could be treated or spoken of as God himself as Jacob did when contending with an angel or when Aaron was said to be as God to Moses when in fact they were not the first cause but were agents, intermediaries.

So it in the NT also as Jesus in always spoken of as subservient to his father being called a servant, sent forth, being granted the power to judge, being granted life in himself, sitting at the right hand, not acting on his own initiative, not knowing what the Father knew, etc.

301 posted on 12/22/2011 11:43:26 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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