Posted on 12/30/2011 7:07:29 PM PST by rzman21
“Who in their right mind would reject such a gift?”
There are times when one is not in their right mind. And even Christ himself suffered on the cross, and suffered crushing despair.
“Sin does not hurt God”
Yet Jesus wept. Sin is offensive to God.
“it is our problem”
Sin hurts the connection that we have to God, which is why we have to keep turning away from it.
“Him who is not willing that any should perish.”
But he in his wisdom does not force us to follow him. It is our decision.
As for being fearful, does not scripture say “work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for the Spirit of the Lord works through you?”
“Who in their right mind would reject such a gift?”
There are times when one is not in their right mind. And even Christ himself suffered on the cross, and suffered crushing despair.
“Sin does not hurt God”
Yet Jesus wept. Sin is offensive to God.
“it is our problem”
Sin hurts the connection that we have to God, which is why we have to keep turning away from it.
“Him who is not willing that any should perish.”
But he in his wisdom does not force us to follow him. It is our decision.
As for being fearful, does not scripture say “work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for the Spirit of the Lord works through you?”
“Even my beloved Aquinas shows signs of floundering in those depths”
And that is the point that I am trying to convey. I suppose I could preach a happy faith where everything goes smoothly and we have nothing to fear, etc. But I won’t preach a lie.
You will be tempted, sometimes you will even say yes to the temptation, and then you have the long lonely walk backwards, away from sin.
What are we going to say to the Christian who believes that he is saved and everybody lives happily ever after, when that’s not the case? Christ doesn’t promise us the happy ever after.
He says that we will suffer. He says that this world hates him and so it will hate us. The reason is the same thing that drew us in - the world is not made for us, and we are not made for the world.
We are made for something more, much more. We are not called to never fall. We are not called to always stand firm. But we are called to get up. Every single time.
No, it doesn't because you don't KNOW.
It's simply because of Catholics presuming my position and questioning me and demanding answers of why I believe a certain way when they don't know.
I'm not playing stupid games like that. If I thought they really wanted to know with honest motives, I'd answer. I can recognize manipulation tactics when I see them and I won't be manipulated.
Well, to be frank, you believe that your body is your own to do with as you see fit. You believe in bodily autonomy, and that the Church has no right to constrain you in this regard.
This isn’t really surprising. “The church has no right to tell ME what to do”. Fair enough, but I’m pretty certain I’m correct here.
“Guys like Jerome, Augustine and Cyprian were instrumental in the development of the doctrine of Mary’s ever-virgin status.”
So then you ought to believe them since you are saying they were *right* about the body. Are they wrong or right? Or wrong about certain teachings and correct about others?
“I find it rather contradictory in principal that Rome considers entering marriage with the intention of never having children to be a “grave wrong and more than likely grounds for an annulment.” while praying to a women who went thru with a marriage apparently intending to do just that, according to Rome. And which is contrary to the “leave and cleave” description of marriage in Gn. 2:24 and personally confirmed by the Lord Jesus. (Mt. 19:5)”
Couple things here.
Mary was betrothed to Joseph. She did not ‘enter into the marriage agreement with the intention of never having children’.
She had no expectation of being chosen by Christ. When it did happen - she submitted to the Lord and became pregnant and gave birth through Christ.
Joseph has every right to end their marriage agreement at this point. He is not the father of her child. He can go and walk away, and the Law would not prevent him from doing so. However, Joseph makes a different decision.
Joseph decides to stay and marry Mary, to care for her and her child, even though her child is not his. He also chooses that in light of the exceptional circumstances, that she is consecrated to God, and respects that in his marriage.
Mary is a special case, due to the annunciation and the Virgin birth. How many women are virgins when they give birth? None. That’s the point. All but Mary conceive through sex and are not Virgins when they give birth, that status is reserved for Mary.
So that being said. Leave and cleave, apparently isn’t the doctrine of anyone but the Catholic church. The Catholic church preaches that cleave - means that the two become one and not two. Barrier methods of contraception are just that, a barrier - rather than 2 becoming one, you have 2 remaining 2. You are not really cleaving - you are holding back. Out of fear perhaps? I do not know.
Marriage is very special. It means that you are no longer belonging to you, but have an obligation to your husband and he to you. Contraception impairs this bond because it is an expression of bodily autonomy, that you can have me, but not all of me.
So really, there’s no contradiction here. Mary was consecrated to God through the annunciation and Joseph was not willing to break this.
“And He specified opposite genders as being what God joined, not as homosexual revisionists would have it.”
Which is why the bond is important here. As you said leave and cleave. Not leave, and make sure you’re protected.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
I answer to God, not you, not your church.
I will not answer any question from anyone that is designed to be used against me in any form to pass judgment on my spirituality or whether or not I am a Christian according to the interrogator.
And that's all I ever see the questioning that Catholics have been hounding me with on various subjects to be doing. Finding out where where I stand on certain issues so's they can determine based on their own criteria whether I'm a *real* Christian or not.
That is not their call and I refuse to participate in it. Their opinion on my being a Christian or not is meaningless to me.
“I will not answer any question from anyone that is designed to be used against me in any form to pass judgment on my spirituality or whether or not I am a Christian according to the interrogator.”
Where have I said that those who accept contraception are not Christians?
That is mind reading.....
And you are wrong.
You believe in bodily autonomy, and that the Church has no right to constrain you in this regard.
The church has no authority over anyone but those who choose to place themselves under it. I am free in Christ and will not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
This isn’t really surprising. “The church has no right to tell ME what to do”. Fair enough, but I’m pretty certain I’m correct here.
The *church* hasn't been given the *right* to tell ANYONE what to do. It may lay claim to it, but it wasn't given to them.
Yet it is Paul who says that you were bought for a very dear price.
“The *church* hasn’t been given the *right* to tell ANYONE what to do. It may lay claim to it, but it wasn’t given to them.”
It was given to them by Christ.
God's command to mankind was to be fruitful and multiply, the one command that mankind has generally not disobeyed.
Now tell me, if this is God's will for us, then why does the Roman Catholic Church demand celibacy from its priests and nuns?
How can it hypocritically condemn mechanical contraception and not Natural Family Planning, which is simply a different way of preventing conception?
And what about celibacy for priests? Is that not preventing conception by the more extreme measure of denying them sex by demanding a vow of celibacy?
Paul does say we were bought with a price. We are indeed not our own; we are Christ's - NOT the church's.
mm: “The *church* hasn’t been given the *right* to tell ANYONE what to do. It may lay claim to it, but it wasn’t given to them.”
BK: It was given to them by Christ.
Where? Chapter and verses please.
Your own post proves you wrong.Thanks MD for a beautifully worded post.
BK...
"Yet Jesus wept. Sin is offensive to God."
I don't think Jesus wept because He was offended,rather He wept at the terrible grip death had on those He loved.
Sorry to rush off but work awaits.
I think God’s heart is such that He weeps not because He is hurt by sin but because we are hurt by sin.
“I will give to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.”
Already been quoted...
“God’s command to mankind was to be fruitful and multiply”
Which is why the Church is the only one who stands up for this teaching in that they reject contraception.
“the one command that mankind has generally not disobeyed.”
Nonsense. It’s probably the least obeyed commandment in western society.
“Now tell me, if this is God’s will for us, then why does the Roman Catholic Church demand celibacy from its priests and nuns?”
As Paul says, “the one who can accept it should accept it”. Each man has his own gifts.
“How can it hypocritically condemn mechanical contraception and not Natural Family Planning”
Have you tried natural family planning?
Natural family planning is very different from contraception, it can be used to increase fertility and help conceive.
All natural family planning provides is information, as to whether your wife is or is not fertile. How you chose to act on that information is up to you.
Two, it does nothing to impair the union between husband and wife. There’s no latex between you. The union is not impaired.
Three, it requires self-discipline, because you have to refrain from sex on fertile periods. You can’t just put on a condom and problem solved.
“which is simply a different way of preventing conception?”
It comes back to the union of husband and wife. Barrier methods of contraception are just that, a barrier between husband and wife.
“And what about celibacy for priests?”
What about it? Not everyone is called to get married and have a family.
“Is that not preventing conception by the more extreme measure of denying them sex by demanding a vow of celibacy?”
At the very least it’s honest. The priests are saying that their calling is not to get married and have children. Rather then lie to themselves and deny their calling, they have embraced it.
What are we to say of couples that insist that they are called to be married, and yet do not want to give up contraception? Are they being true their calling? It’s like Jonah. Jonah fled from his calling, and bore the consequences.
Anyone not familiar with and trained in all the aspects of Natural Family Planning and, as well, with the process and effect of “mechanical” contraception, cannot make a valid assumption about “hypocrisy” in promoting NFP.
There is nothing “hypocritical” about it. It’s quite straightforward.
Also, when a Catholic priest chooses to be ordained, he chooses celibacy. He knows what he is choosing. It is not forced on him. He has choice. This has been hashed and re-hashed so often on this forum that I have to wonder why it’s always being brought up as something “new” to say.
They are not in a position whereby they can make that judgement for their beliefs are grounded in catholicisum ,and Vatican instructions foremost, on what they should believe rather than the finished and completed work of Christ.
Great post! Inspired for sure.
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
It is the faith of Christ through us, not our faith.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.