Posted on 12/30/2011 7:07:29 PM PST by rzman21
That point is very, very important. If Jesus was not considered the first offspring of Joseph Satan could have accused God of not upholding His word about heirs to David’s throne.
Not only did Jesus say that those who would believe on Him would be more blessed than Mary but no elevated status is given her in any writings of the Apostles and only after 300 years is any mention given here.
The entire Mariology myth is based on nothing but hearsay and embellished imaginings told and retold over the centuries. The only written record from Bible times of the “bodily assumption of a “queen of heaven” is pagan.
Again, Scripture does not contain all of what the Apostles wrote, nor does it claim such a ridiculous notion. As for Mary not mattering to the Apostles, we know that’s not true, for the Apostles took care of her.
If she died when she is said to havedied, then I’m not sure I see the relevance to the purpose of the bible. The bible is not an exhaustive work covering the early church. It covers those parts that are necessary for our salvation.
From the account, we learn several things. 1, that Juvenal spoke for the Council at Chalcedon. Meaning that he spoke with the authority of the Church. Two, he speaks regarding ‘long held tradition’, and this account is not the first time this has come up. It is however the only one that we possess - which is an entirely different matter.
It’s not hearsay - far from it.
I’m aware of that. Unfortunately, scripture does not claim that authority for itself. Quite the contrary. Scripture goes out of it’s way to tell us that tradition is authoritative.
“Not only did Jesus say that those who would believe on Him would be more blessed than Mary”
He never says that at all. He says: “blessed are those that hear the Word of God and obey.
One, you’re assuming that Mary disobeyed, AND that he was denying what he taught - “honor thy father and thy mother”.
He does not say you can dishonor them, only that He is to take priority.
Get it right. If you’re going to quote scripture, get it right or don’t bother.
“The entire Mariology myth”
Then tell me what the Catholic church believes about Mary. Good luck. I bet you can’t.
“The only written record from Bible times”
And what is this account? I wager it’s not reputable or otherwise you’ve have cited it before..
“Bias for untruths is nothing to brag about but it is the catholic way. And questioning why some leave?”
Considering how poorly you cited that previous source, I have to wonder why you think that you accusing me of telling untruths has any force.
Clean out your own house first. Make sure you get it right.
Luke 11:27-28 27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, (Greek Menounge: nay surely, nay rather) blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
The words spoken to Mary were no different then were spoken to Jael in Judges. In fact, Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,
Those words were also spoken of Noah, Moses, and David.
>> And what is this account? I wager it’s not reputable or otherwise you’ve have cited it before..<<
Jeremiah 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
The people defy Jeremiah and insist on venerating the “Queen of heaven”.
Jeremiah 44:16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. 17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. 18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. 19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
Jeremiah 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
God gives them over to their evil wants.
Jeremiah 44:25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows. 26 Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth. 27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.
It was only 400 years after the flood when the “queen of heaven” concept began. Do some research on the death of Nimrod, King of Babylon, and his wife Semiramis. Babylon becomes the fountainhead of false religion in the Post-Flood world. "Mystery Babylon" is an even more theme in Bible prophecy. Revelation 17-18 depicts God's final judgment of world religion plus world commerce and trade since these man-made systems have sprung from the source rebellion of Nimrod and Babel.
So, you're saying that the church is not necessary for salvation? That the Bible is the only thing necessary for our salvation and not the Catholic Church with her traditions and doctrines of men?
That doesn’t give the RCC free reign to make stuff up.
>>The bible is not an exhaustive work covering the early church. It covers those parts that are necessary for our salvation.<<
Not according to the CC.
>>Meaning that he spoke with the authority of the Church.<<
LOL If you believe their circular logic. I don’t.
>>Two, he speaks regarding ‘long held tradition’<<
AKA myths and concoctions of man’s imagination and speculation.
“So, you’re saying that the church is not necessary for salvation?”
What does Romans say about this question? Romans says that the one without the Law will be a law unto himself. You don’t even need knowledge of scripture to be saved.
Of course, it does help, because as people come to know the Gospels they are more likely to come to him.
Same with the Church. The Gospels themselves speak as to how the purpose of the Church was to spread the Word - everywhere, and the bible helps with this tremendously. But bibles don’t get there by themselves.
That is what the Church is for, and if you don’t believe me, look up the Great Commission.
“That the Bible is the only thing necessary for our salvation”
Scripture doesn’t teach this. It does teach that the bible is sufficient - that everything you do need is there, but it doesn’t teach the unbiblical notion that it is required.
“Catholic Church with her traditions and doctrines of men?”
Scripture herself affirms and exhorts Timothy to pass on those traditions. The bible was written through oral tradition, and was compiled through the tradition of the magisterium and their authority to recognize inspired works.
Don’t believe me - look at the history behind it. Ut’s all there Scripture AND tradition.
“That doesn’t give the RCC free reign to make stuff up.”
They aren’t ‘making stuff up’. As much as you’d like to believe it does, they don’t.
“Not according to the CC.”
Not according to what CynicalBear believes the Catholic church teaches. And once again Cynical Bear is wrong. The CC does teach the sufficiency of Scripture.
“If you believe their circular logic.”
I accept Chalcedon. Simple as that. You seem to believe that they were right about some things and wrong about others, picking and choosing what you want to believe. Or some bizarre notion that you can reject the authority of the Council and still get to affirm their teachings...
“myths and concoctions of man’s imagination and speculation.”
You were asked to show what the CC teaches about mary. I suspect, once again, you’re simply mistaken on what she does teach.
But who cares about the facts? If CB says it’s so, it must be so!
“The words spoken to Mary were no different then were spoken to Jael in Judges. In fact, Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women.”
And Christ preached that we are to honor our mother and father. Distort what scripture says all you want, scripture is clear.
“Blessed are those who hear the Word of God and obey it”.
Not ‘blessed are those who change the word of God to mean what they would really prefer it to mean and then obey it.’
Hear -> Obey. You don’t get to rewrite Scripture, and you don’t get a pass for doing so.
“Those words were also spoken of Noah, Moses, and David.”
What does kacharatomene mean? I’m glad you quoted that passage.
“Jeremiah Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.”
Ah, once again, total lack of biblical understanding.
“The people defy Jeremiah and insist on venerating the “Queen of heaven”.”
That’s not what the passage says. It says that they make food offerings to Astoreth. Why do I know this? Because I read scripture and read what it actually says.
Where does the passage say that it is referring to Mary, the mother of God?
“It was only 400 years after the flood when the “queen of heaven” concept began.”
Probabaly sooner then this, actually.
“Do some research”
Do your own. Show me where scripture says that this is Mary.
“Revelation 17-18 depicts God’s final judgment of world religion plus world commerce and trade since these man-made systems have sprung from the source rebellion of Nimrod and Babel.”
I don’t see “this is the Catholic church” in there anywheres. Perhaps you prefer to rely on the tradition of men, but I’ll stick to scripture, TYVM.
And I’m thinking contraception caught on pretty well amongst Catholics...Large Catholic families are pretty much a thing of the past...
Perhaps you’ve been ‘in the questioning others’ motives’ business’ too long and it’s time to check your own.
I make a mistake, I own up to it.
You made a ‘mistake’ and I’ve yet to see you apologize for it.
Oh, btw, calling us slaves of satan and then complaining about ‘questioning others motives’?
Makes me laugh.
smvoice: So, you're saying that the church is not necessary for salvation? That the Bible is the only thing necessary for our salvation and not the Catholic Church with her traditions and doctrines of men?
That's how it reads.
Tell me metmom, are you required to read scripture in order to be saved?
Can a blind person be saved?
Can someone who is illiterate be saved?
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