Posted on 01/18/2012 3:19:15 PM PST by NYer
.- Pope Benedict XVI said today that achieving Christian unity requires more than “cordiality and cooperation” and that it must be accompanied by interior conversion.
“Faith in Christ and interior conversion, both individual and communal, must constantly accompany our prayer for Christian unity,” said the Pope to over 8,000 pilgrims gathered in the Vatican’s Paul VI Audience Hall on Jan. 18.
The Pope’s comments mark the start of the 2012 Week of Prayer for Christian Unity that runs until Jan. 25. It will be observed by over 300 Christian churches and ecclesial communities around the globe.
The Pope asked for “the Lord in a particular way to strengthen the faith of all Christians, to change our hearts and to enable us to bear united witness to the Gospel.”
In this way, he said, they “will contribute to the new evangelization and respond ever more fully to the spiritual hunger of the men and women of our time.”
The Pope explained that the concept of a week of prayer for Christian unity was initiated in 1908 by Paul Wattson, an Episcopalian minister from Maryland. One year later, he became a Catholic and was subsequently ordained to the priesthood.
Pope Benedict recalled how the initiative was supported by his predecessors Pope St. Pius X and Pope Benedict XV. It was then “developed and perfected” in the 1930s by the Frenchman Abbé Paul Couturier, who promoted prayer “for the unity of the Church as Christ wishes and according to the means he wills.”
The mandate for the week of prayer, the Pope underscored, comes from the wish of Christ himself at the Last Supper “that they may all be one.” He observed that this mission was given a particular impetus by the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) but added that “the unity we strive for cannot result merely from our own efforts.” Rather, “it is a gift we receive and must constantly invoke from on high.”
The theme for 2012 Week of Prayer – “All shall be changed by the victory of Jesus Christ our Lord” – was crafted by the Polish Ecumenical Council. Pope Benedict said it reflects “their own experience as a nation,” which stayed faithful to Christ “in the midst of trials and upheavals,” including years of occupation by the Nazis and later the Communists.
The Pope tied the victory the Polish people experienced over their oppressors to overcoming the disunity that marks Christians.
He said that the “unity for which we pray requires inner conversion, both shared and individual,” and it cannot be “limited to cordiality and cooperation.” Instead, Christians must accept “all the elements of unity which God has conserved for us.”
Ecumenism, the Pope stated, is not an optional extra for Catholics but is “the responsibility of the entire Church and of all the baptized.” Christians, he said, must make praying for unity an “integral part” of their prayer life, “especially when people from different traditions come together to work for victory in Christ over sin, evil, injustice and the violation of human dignity.”
Pope Benedict then touched on the lack of unity in the Christian community, which he said “hinders the effective announcement of the Gospel and endangers our credibility.” Evangelizing formerly Christian countries and spreading the Gospel to new places will be “more fruitful if all Christians together announce the truth of the Gospel and Jesus Christ, and give a joint response to the spiritual thirst of our times,” he explained.
The Pope concluded his comments with the hope that this year’s Week of Prayer for Christian Unity will lead to “increased shared witness, solidarity and collaboration among Christians, in expectation of that glorious day when together we will all be able to celebrate the Sacraments and profess the faith transmitted by the Apostles.”
The general audience finished with Pope Benedict addressing pilgrims in various languages, including greeting a group of men and women from the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, before leading the crowd in the Our Father and imparting his apostolic blessing.
The big flaw in your mistaken understanding of Jesus, His Church and Israel is in the fact that Peter and the others not only accept and approve Paul, they embrace the revelations to him and include that in their preaching on Jesus.
Those Jews who did not reject Jesus, do not remain simply Jews, but the first converts to Christianity.
What you fail to see is that Paul is the first example of one called after the ascension of Jesus. The revelation to Peter regarding the Gentiles opens the door to the revelations to Paul.
In these successions of events, we see exactly what Jesus promised, that the Holy Spirit would lead them to all truth and thus, the workings of the Holy Spirit through the Church.
Now as for the Twelve Tribes, which you deny include the adopted sons and daughters. A view that is rejected by many Christian scholars and theologians, by the way.
It is interesting that James writes to the twelve tribes which are dispersed abroad. It is interesting because, 10 of the 12 are called the “lost tribes”. These lost tribes were subsumed/absorbed into the nations to which they were dispersed when they were conquered by the Assyrians. So, then why does James address his letter to them?
There is a whole lot more to all this than what you and others who believe as you do have focused on.
That is why it important to know and understand the Bible in complete synchronicity and not divide parts up to support error. To do so negates the what is said in the OT, what Jesus said, and even what Paul said.
One thing I have learned in dealing with Catholics is to not discount the most absurd things they've been known to say because Catholic's beliefs are all over the map.
So when a Catholic says the pope saves souls, after seeing all the argument from Catholics about apostolic succession and retaining and remitting sins, nothing is impossible to believe from a Catholic.
Besides, why shouldn't they believe that the pope can save souls. Official Catholic doctrine holds that Mary can.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506
The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507
. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace
So you agree Evangelization isn't Gnosticism?
Evangelizing has been going on constantly since the first century.
CC 2853: "Victory over the 'prince of this world' [Jn 14:30] was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is 'cast out.'[Jn 12:31; Rev 12:10.] 'He pursued the woman' [Rev 12:13-16.] but had no hold on her: the new Eve, 'full of grace' of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). 'Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring.' [Rev 12:17.] Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: 'Come, Lord Jesus,' [Rev 22:17,20.] since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One."
YET here it is written in Romans
Romans 3 New International Version (NIV)
(20) Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
(21) But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (KJV)
It does NOT say: "For all EXCEPT MOTHER MARY and come short of the glory of God."
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507
>>This is a Christological reference dating back to St. Irenaeus of Lyons in the 2nd Century.
“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise ‘they were both naked, and were not ashamed,’ inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, “instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.’ For the Lord, having been born “the First-begotten of the dead,’ and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.”
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455
But considering that you divide Jesus into two persons and reject the Hypostatic Union, I’m sure this goes over your head.
No. Evangelicalism is Gnostic.
1 Tim 2:5
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,”
>> “No, it’s teased out by some using some parts of Paul and not others and then ignoring contradictions in other scripture.” <<
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There is only one verse in the entire Bible (in James) that can be twisted and contorted to support your fallacy of works based salvation. That is in contrast to the entire New Testament that says works based salvation is the lie of Satan.
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I don’t know how you guys misunderstand so much of Scripture.
The passages you post, while they do in fact offer insight into Paul’s calling and mission, DO NOT say that the revelation that Paul received is DIFFERENT in any way from that of Jesus to the original twelve.
The Church has always understood that doctrine and theology develops over time in part in reaction to heresies that arose and still arise.
Paul’s revelation is nothing more than a furthering, deepening understanding of Jesus’ revelation to the first Apostles and had Peter and the others not accepted it, it would have divided the early Church. We do not see division however, we see unity and we see the incorporation of Paul’s revelation into that of/to Peter and the others. That is why we have Paul repudiating the fact that some claim to follow certain men rather than accepting and adhering to the whole of the Church.
****Even then Peter didn’t know any thing about it until it was revealed to Paul and then the others that Gentiles were given the opportunity to join the church as adopted members...****
That is just a fantasy. The question was not whether Gentiles would be accepted into the Church, but what conditions, if any, would they have to meet. Did they have to “become” Jews first?
Paul preached in synagogues, he preached to Jews and Gentiles, just as Peter preached to Jews and Gentiles.
One must remember that the Gentiles did not have the historical and religious background of the Jews. They were not God’s Chosen people and they were not under the law and so the approach to them is different.
Why, they must have asked, does the God of Israel offer us the same salvation as He does to His people? They did not follow the Commandments or the works of the law. They did not themselves as being saved by Jesus.
And, that is why Paul says so often, that it is not the works of the law that saves them, but the Grace of God. God in His grace, who has created all things for Himself, wishes them to also be saved and have eternal life.
****The people Jesus preached to were looking for a physical kingdom with a physical Messiah sitting on a throne****
Yes, and that is part of the reason why Jesus was rejected by many Jews. Peter and the others knew Jesus had ascended to heaven and was seated on His throne, so they knew His throne was in heaven and not on earth.
No one claims that Peter and the others knew everything in one fell swoop of the Holy Spirit, but that does not change that Jesus came as the Lamb of God and that Peter knew that His death and resurrection was for the remission of sin salvation of souls.
—For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;—
Do toddlers sin? The mentally handicapped?
We often use the word “all” without meaning each and every one, as the sacred author is probably doing here.
>> “No, it’s teased out by some using some parts of Paul and not others and then ignoring contradictions in other scripture.” <<
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The righteous are those whose faith has brought salvation. Their unrighteousness has been covered by the blood of Christ. Those that do works will never know righteousness.
Did God really say that one must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have everlasting life?
***the flesh counts for NOTHING.***
Well, YOUR flesh counts for nothing....
Jesus’ flesh, however, counts for everything
Yeah, but one verse makes the whole rest of the Bible wrong, dontcha know?
But that's what they're good at because every major, distinguishing Catholic doctrine that they use Scripture to support falls into that same category. ONE verse taken out of context and misinterpreted which contradicts chapters worth of other teaching, including the words of Jesus Himself.
They do it for the eucharist, the papacy, authority to forgive sins and keep people out of heaven, you name it.
Since anglian was talking about Mary, are you putting her in one of those categories?
Thank You heavenly Father for my FRiend G Larry's post. Thank you My Lord Jesus Christ for your blood which covers my sins of spiritual pride, judgmental attitude, and an untamed tongue like James talks about.
This is so cool, I wrote:
You don't have a clue
which prompted your response G Larry. When I typed it I was talking to you personally which is against FR rules and I beg your forgiveness as well. After I posted it I thought "You" can mean more than one person so I was okay. Then I read your inspired post and the Lord Jesus Told me You were right G Larry. Praise God!
Instead of you don't have a clue I should have written WE don't have a clue. The only one with wisdom is God! We all see through a glass darkly!
I do recommend for everyone that we drop our pre conceived notions and ask the Lord Jesus Christ directly for wisdom and truth. IT IS AMAZING!
So what does eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood do for you?
If you have to argue against the false dichotomy of Salvation by works alone, then you must not have much of an argument.
There are other verses that belie Sola Fide; for example, just try reading *all* that Paul teaches about salvation, eternal life, judgement etc., (like the one I posted earlier) not just your one Pauline verse that still does not say "you are saved by faith alone."
The only place in scripture that has the words "faith alone" says "not by faith alone." Your doctrine is just not there unless you "interpret" it in or you follow a tradition that does.
"Twisted and contorted" regarding James would describe getting Sola Fide from this:
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?i If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?m
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
For gnostics it is. :)
For Catholics, no.
****(20) Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.****
No one has ever claimed that Mary’s Immaculate Conception was accomplished by the works of the law.
The truth of the teaching of the Church is evident in that part of the statement which you have chosen NOT to highlight.
****by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, ****
Mary is indeed saved and preserved from sin by the same Grace by which we are all saved, through the same merits of Jesus the Christ by which we are all redeemed.
If you are going to try to use the CCC against the Church’s teachings, at least try to thoroughly read and understand it first.
Jesus is Mary’s Savior, just as He is for all who believe in Him.
And Christ's ministry is not to us.
At some point, your teachers go off the Christian rails.
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