Pope says uniting Christianity requires conversion

cna ^ | January 18, 2012 | David Kerr

[metmom]

Mary is indeed saved and preserved from sin by the same Grace by which we are all saved, through the same merits of Jesus the Christ by which we are all redeemed.

Well then, why didn't God go ahead and do it for the whole rest of humanity, or at least all those of us who are saved, and save everyone a lot of grief?

If He did it for her, it certainly would have been within His power to do it for any one of us.

[Syncro]

Well the Pope speaks of it as if it is a good thing.

Interesting concept, the Pope being Gnostic.

It's good to see that all Catholics aren't in lockstep with the Pope.

Jesus encouraged all of his followers to evangelize and they did just that.

So they would be considered Gnostic also.

Perhaps you are talking about the movement, Evangelicalism.

The stressed the need for personal conversion. (the Pope in this article is in agreement)

They also had an emphasis on teachings that proclaim the saving death and resurrection of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. (different from your post upthread, “The Pope saves souls”)

They were very active in spreading the Gospel and paying very close attention to what the Holy Spirit inspired Bible (The Word of God, Jesus is The Word) guided them to do.

[Syncro]

Nor for Evangelicals.

Glad we cleared that up.

[Jvette]

I often see a hint of jealousy in the protestant angst directed at the doctrines on Mary.

Why didn’t God choose to do that for all of us?

He did.

Mary is saved by the shed blood of Jesus and her sinlessness is a result of her perfect unity to Him, by virtue of the fact that He was carried in her womb.

Do you believe that when one is united to Jesus it is easier to avoid sin?

I do, so if Mary was perfectly united to Him, and she was, then it is Him working within her that accomplishes the avoidance of sin and not anything she has done. She was/is completely obedient to His Word, no different than what we are all called to be.

There is nothing in Catholic teaching that says that Mary has done anything on her own.

She is who and what she is because her Son, Jesus, is who and what He is.

[smvoice]

I think we might get a better understanding of each other if you read my post 407. If I am speaking of LITERAL things, and you are speaking of SPIRITUAL things, we will never come to an understanding of God’s Word. For instance, will Peter and the 11 LITERALLY be seated on 12 thrones judging the LITERAL twelve tribes of Israel during the LITERAL Millenial Reign of Christ’s LITERAL Kingdom on earth? And so on..

[smvoice]

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, TO THE TWELVE TRIBES WHICH ARE SCATTERED ABROAD, greeting." James 1:1.

What part of that do you not understand? If you cannot take God's Word and read it as PLAINLY as it is written, then I cannot help you. No one can. Except the Holy Spirit.

[2nd amendment mama]

Placemarker

[metmom]

I often see a hint of jealousy in the protestant angst directed at the doctrines on Mary.

FOTFLOL!!!

In your dreams. It never entered my mind...

It's merely projecting....

Since we don't believe most of what Catholicism teaches about Mary in the first place, how could be jealous of what God did (didn't do) for her?

I am just as saved as Mary or any other believer who has put their faith in Christ and am seated in the heavenlies with them.

Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

[CynicalBear]

ROFL In the first verse yet! You have to understand the mixed up understanding when the CC teaches that the church has replaced Israel so how would those who put the RCC over scripture understand?

[editor-surveyor]

You’re the one that battles the strawmen.

There is no salvation by works period. None, zip, nada. Works have no measure in our salvation; it is entirely by grace through faith with no other man made angles.

Works are to be a product of salvation, not a source. Christ paid 100% of the price.

[rzman21]

Do you believe that God created human beings with free-will?

[rzman21]

In common parlance, Evangelical Protestantism maintains a Gnostic view of the sacraments, and the Eucharist in particular.

Evangelicalism’s

http://jonathanturtle.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/christian-heresies-gnostic-spirituality/
http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=696&var3=main
http://books.google.com/books?id=fR7aAAAAMAAJ&q=gnosticism++evangelicalism&dq=gnosticism++evangelicalism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mO0ZT7m5C4PEgQe5iPzjCw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwATgK

[johngrace]

Dear Brother-My reaction is more about people who think that about Catholics. I may or may not agree totally on a post.

I do not believe people who are not Catholic can not have Jesus. I know many Good decent Christian. If anyone can declare 1 John 4 he or she can only declare it under The Holy Spirit. God has shown to me many things along those lines.

Remember the Apostle John put this in the epistle/letter to actually test a "Christian ".

I tested a friend's wife who was into the occult. She declared she was a Christian. She was into spell casting. The Holy Spirit within me help to confront her.

I told her to try and declare Christ came in the Flesh/ human. She could not either from the apostles creed or nicene creed. She could not even declare specifically that Christ became Human\Flesh. You could almost see the demoniacs working to prevent her from speaking.

She wanted to declare it but could not. Because she played with this dangerous forbidden occultic practice. She would stutter but wanted so much to say it. It never came out. She blurt a fallen spirit line "there are many gods".

To make a long story short. To cut to the Chase. If we can declare this in the personal pronoun. You have THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Also notice my tagline

Praise Jesus! God Bless You and Keep You!

Amen =So Be It!!

Freeper Regards!

[anglian]

"The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin." - Pope Pius IX 1854

Pius IX (1846-78), lost the Papal States; decreed PAPAL INFALLIBILITY; proclaimed the Right to Suppress Heresy by Force; Condemned Separation of Church and State; commanded Catholics to Obey the Head of the Church rather than Civil Rulers; Denounced Liberty of Conscience, Liberty of Worship, Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press; decreed the Immaculate Conception and Deity of Mary; Condemned Bible Societies; declared that Protestantism is "No Form of the Christian Religion"; and that "Every dogma of the Roman Catholic Church has been dictated by Christ through His Viceregents on earth."

INEFFABILIS DEUS THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION

Given at St. Peter's in Rome, the eighth day of December, 1854, in the eighth year of Our pontificate.

Pius IX

**********

Moreover, our predecessors considered it their special solemn duty with all diligence, zeal, and effort to preserve intact the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God. For, not only have they in no way ever allowed this doctrine to be censured or changed, but they have gone much further and by clear statements repeatedly asserted that the doctrine by which we profess the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin is on its own merits entirely in harmony with the ecclesiastical veneration; that it is ancient and widespread, and of the same nature as that which the Roman Church has undertaken to promote and to protect, and that it is entirely worthy to be used in the Sacred Liturgy and solemn prayers. Not content with this they most strictly prohibited any opinion contrary to this doctrine to be defended in public or private in order that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin might remain inviolate. By repeated blows they wished to put an end to such an opinion. And lest these oft-repeated and clearest statements seem useless, they added a sanction to them.

Papal Sanctions

All these things our illustrious predecessor, Alexander VII, summed up in these words: "We have in mind the fact that the Holy Roman Church solemnly celebrated the Feast of the Conception of the undefiled and ever-Virgin Mary, and has long ago appointed for this a special and proper Office according to the pious, devout, and laudable instruction which was given by our predecessor, Sixtus IV. Likewise, we were desirous, after the example of our predecessors, to favor this praiseworthy piety, devotion, feast and veneration -- a veneration which is in keeping with the piety unchanged in the Roman Church from the day it was instituted. We also desired to protect this piety and devotion of venerating and extolling the most Blessed Virgin preserved from original sin by the grace of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, we were anxious to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace in the flock of Christ by putting down arguments and controversies and by removing scandals. So at the instance and request of the bishops mentioned above, with the chapters of the churches, and of King Philip and his kingdoms, we renew the Constitutions and Decrees issued by the Roman Pontiffs, our predecessors, especially Sixtus IV,[8] Paul V,[9] and Gregory XV,[10] in favor of the doctrine asserting that the soul of the Blessed Virgin, in its creation and infusion into the body, was endowed with the grace of the Holy Spirit and preserved from original sin; and also in favor of the feast and veneration of the conception of the Virgin Mother of God, which, as is manifest, was instituted in keeping with that pious belief. So we command this feast to be observed under the censures and penalties contained in the same Constitutions.

"And therefore, against all and everyone of those who shall continue to construe the said Constitutions and Decrees in a manner apt to frustrate the favor which is thereby given to the said doctrine, and to the feast and relative veneration, or who shall dare to call into question the said sentence, feast and worship, or in any way whatever, directly or indirectly, shall declare themselves opposed to it under any pretext whatsoever, were it but only to the extent of examining the possibilities of effecting the definition, or who shall comment upon and interpret the Sacred Scripture, or the Fathers or Doctors in connection therewith, or finally, for any reason, or on any occasion, shall dare, either in writing or verbally, to speak, preach, treat, dispute or determine upon, or assert whatsoever against the foregoing matters, or who shall adduce any arguments against them, while leaving them unresolved, or who shall disagree therewith in any other conceivable manner, we hereby declare that in addition to the penalties and censures contained in the Constitutions issued by Sixtus IV to which we want them to be subjected and to which we subject them by the present Constitution, we hereby decree that they be deprived of the authority of preaching, reading in public, that is to say teaching and interpreting; and that they be also deprived ipso facto of the power of voting, either actively or passively, in all elections, without the need for any further declaration; and that also, ipso facto, without any further declaration, they shall incur the penalty of perpetual disability from preaching, reading in public, teaching and interpreting, and that it shall not be possible to absolve them from such penalty, or remove it, save through ourselves, or the Roman Pontiffs who shall succeed us.

"We also require that the same shall remain subject to any other penalties which by us, of our own free will -- or by the Roman Pontiffs, our successors (according as they may decree) -- shall be deemed advisable to establish, and by the present Constitution we declare them subject thereto, and hereby renew the above Decrees and Constitutions of Paul V and Gregory XV.

"Moreover, as regards those books in which the said sentence, feast and relative veneration are called into question or are contradicted in any way whatsoever, according to what has already been stated, either in writing or verbally, in discourses, sermons, lectures, treatises and debates -- that may have been printed after the above-praised Decree of Paul V, or may be printed hereafter we hereby prohibit them, subject to the penalties and censures established by the Index of prohibited books, and ipso facto, without any further declaration, we desire and command that they be held as expressly prohibited."[11]

http://www.piustheninth.com/apps/app12.htm

[Jvette]

Oh, I understand you very well, I reject your understanding of Scripture and what is literal and what is spiritual.

Your misunderstanding comes from the division of Jesus into the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Savior.

It is not what Scripture teaches, though with wresting verses to suit one’s understanding, it can certainly fool people into thinking it is.

Paul believed in one body, one Lord of all.

The blessing-cup, which we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ; and the loaf of bread which we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? And as there is one loaf, so we, although there are many of us, are one single body, for we all share in the one loaf. (1 Corinthians 10:16-17)

and then further

1 Cor 12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

[Jvette]

I see a bit of defensiveness in the protestant stance as well.

[smvoice]

And I now understand exactly where you're coming from, from your first sentence. You don't take those things I posted to you from God's Word literally. But you DO take allegories and reading between the lines of Scripture to find "truth" as literal.

Your misunderstanding comes from not taking God at His LITERAL WORD. As a result, you could no more rightly divide His word of truth as I could believe that the wafer in my mouth was actually the body of Christ.

The gulf is too great to discuss anything of meaning and search the scriptures to see if those things are so. It's only literal to the RCC if it can be twisted into some kind of pre-conceived doctrine for the RCC's benefit.

Your "understanding" of grace and law, kingdom and body, Peter and Paul are of no value if you cannot/refuse to see where you fit into God's Plan for man. It becomes nothing but a mish-mash of contorted, twisted scriptures welded together to force the Bible to say something it clearly doesn't.

Thanks for the conversation, but further discussion won't benefit either of us. God is not the author of confusion. The Catholic Church cannot say the same thing.

[johngrace]

I don not know what you mean by "pray chains" unless like chain letters with prayer in it.

But true biblical prayers are what Jesus points out in the Parable of the Persistent Widow. Do not confuse when Christ talks about vain repetions like Heathens do discourse. That was repeating the same name without any sense. Today's equivalent would be a Hara krishna repeating a same word only.

Luke 18

The Parable of the Persistent Widow

1 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

7 And WILL not GOD bring about JUSTICE for his chosen ones, who CRY out to HIM DAY and NIGHT? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly.

[Iscool]

Just for the record, the Pope speaks of the second evangelization. The first one being when the Church evangelized all of Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire.

'Convert or die' is the only evangelization your religion was involved in back then...

[johngrace]

"Do you believe that God created human beings with free-will?"

YES!

Good point! If God is doing it only there is no love from God. He is a dictator and we are robots. They think they are being humble but they really are taken their individul selfs that God gave them away. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Like there is no self.