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To: BlueDragon; rzman21
Consider if you will, how you yourself may view things to be, if such had occurred with yourself in the same manner.

For sure, it can seem to us many ways, the way of total surrender, the way of preordained and destined, the way of guidance, or an unseen hand, or God forcing us to choose, to decide what we truly follow. Many ways, many people: God comes to us where we are.

But while this makes for good and valuable testimony, and while it is useful in teaching, it does not say how it must be for all, it doesn't make a theology or soteriology (unless Qué será, será is a plan of salvation.)

And yes, certainly the Church Fathers relied very heavily on scripture, still do. But in times of dueling verses capable of different meaning, they sought what was coherent and consistent of the faith taught by Christ to His Apostles.

And this is where the authority lies: in the Apostolic Church. If it lie in sola scriptura it lies with the individual's authority, which is where, IMHO, all the solas originated.

thanks very much for your courteous reply.

338 posted on 01/19/2012 5:30:18 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

What was that Catholic plan of salvation again?

Bland assertions don't cut the mustard. What was that secret knowledge taught by Christ to his Apostles that we cannot otherwise find in the scriptures? Was it in the writings of the early church fathers? If it be in the early practice, then what do know of that but which has been written concerning it?

If there be evidence or belief in that, then lets severely restrict that which we can claim is "of the faith taught by Christ to His Apostles" to the first generation or two of church writers. For if they do not speak of a thing, or they speak contrary to that which later arises (which can be found to have occurred) then how can we then say with any certainty that something coming into discussion in the late 2nd century and even much later like the forth, fifth or sixth--- can be said to have been of the original teachings, if we are not consulting the scriptures --- or some secret body of teachings kept hidden from us all so well?

Viva Voce? (Whatever we say?)

I was told earlier today that 3 of the solas have long been accepted by the Catholic Church. One of them, by grace alone I highlighted in bold, just as I have here, and pinged your own self to my original comment here, for that very reason. Grace.

380 posted on 01/19/2012 10:20:54 PM PST by BlueDragon (on'a $10 horse an' a $40 saddle I'm going up the trail with them longhorn cattle c'm uh ty-yi-yipy-)
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