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To: metmom
Saving faith comes from the heart, not the mind. The mind needs to understand, but when the heart is touched, is when it responds with a wholesale selling out to God. A person can force themselves to change by knowing intellectually what they should do and by force of will, making themselves do it.

When the heart responds to God, the heart is changed and they do what they should because they're given a new heart and new nature.

God is about relationships, not performance. He looks on the heart and judges according to that. The heart is about relationship, while the mind is about performance.

Yes, there must be a turning of the will, not just of the intellect, to God. But this is the Catholic position. From the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent (1547):

CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these:

  • the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting;
  • while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance;
  • but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father;
  • the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified;
  • lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.
  • For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.
    When Catholics reject the notion of Salvation by Faith Alone they understand faith as intellectual assent. If you broaden the term of faith to include the will then that matches the Catholic understanding as presented in Chapter VII above.

    I guess I don’t see saving faith as something that is works added to intellectual assent to transform it into saving faith, but as a differnt type of faith.

    This reflects a common Protestant misunderstanding of the Catholic position on the importance of works. The Catholic Church does not teach that we merit our through works. Again, from the Council of Trent:

    CHAPTER VIII.
    In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.

    And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.


    236 posted on 02/03/2012 12:48:08 PM PST by Petrosius
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    To: Petrosius
    The Catholic church does not teach salvation by faith alone.

    It teaches that baptism is necessary, that confession, communion, penance, works, etc.

    And the average Catholic thinks that if they've done enough they can get into heaven with only an extended stay in purgatory to burn off any sins they forgot to confess here on earth.

    I've had more than enough FRoman Catholics quote James at us and tell us that they'll know when they get there whether they've made it or not.

    That is NOT salvation by faith. That is salvation by works, trying to merit enough of God's favor and appease enough of His anger to allow them in.

    As a matter of fact, there's this little tidbit from the Council of Trent.

    http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

    CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

    CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

    CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

    237 posted on 02/03/2012 1:47:19 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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