Posted on 02/19/2012 4:28:52 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
“...but he that believeth not shall be damned.(Mark 16:16)”
The answer is right there. It isn’t about baptism AT ALL. It is all about belief. It is said over and over, if you don’t believe, you aren’t saved. Scripture NEVER says “If you aren’t baptized, you aren’t saved.”.
You have a bad hermeneutic here and you need to look at other parts of scripture that prove this CANNOT mean what you say it does.
It looks like you peruse all comments to find some to refute. My comment was to another who said that Baprism saved. I read all your articles, and while I agree on most points, they seem to be essays on how the Catholic Church sees things. I became non-denominational because I got tired of all the religious differences. Over 32,000 sects of Christianity and they all have their own pet interpretations of what the Bible says and some of the interpretations seem a bit contradictory to the words. I don't need a relationship with Peter, although I cherish what he and others did to start Christianity and to carry the Divinely inspired Word. Jesus walked the earth as 100% Man and 100% God so He copuld show us that we could have a personal relationship with Him. I don't pray to the saints because I have a direct route - why go to the waiter when you can go directly to the manager?
I'm not trying to slam or cut down the works you offer - I appreciate the effort to carry the Word. I just disagree with a few of the statements, even as I agree with the greater part. God Bless.
Thanks for the civil tone trebb- its not true that I peruse for refutation, it is that in the midst of this discussion with others, I failed to see the heading on your comment. No harm intended.
I promise you I am not trying to push the Catholic poit of view, having been saved out of the Roman church thirty years ago. In fact I believe that the Mass is idolatrous. Nor am I saying we “need a relationship with Peter” other than to believe in the revelation entrusted to him.
All I was attemtping is to take a look at what Peter could have possibly meant when he said “Baptism now Saves...”. I had alrady stated in the article that our redemption was purchased by Jesus’ blood alone.
Thanks again for the civil tone and for your word of encouragement- God bless
You gave me a list of salvation scriptures... wonderful! I believe everyone of them, although I would contest your denial that any of them have anything to do with Baptism. As I said in the article "our pardon was purchased by the blood of Jesus.
Peter goes on to call water baptism "An appeal to God for a good conscience"
Scripture does support the idea of the necessity of a public confession of Jesus and identification with his death, burial and ressurection in baptism. In that sense Baptism serves to clearly mark the line between the world and the confessing christian.
No where in the Bible do any of the Apostles diminish the importance of Water Baptism as many who have commented on this article do. True Paul was glad that he didn't baptize the Corinthians, and did say that Christ appointed him to preach the gospel, not baptize. But none of them make assertions such as "Baptism is just an outward sign of an inward rality, or as others have said 'baptism is little different from Jewish ritual baths", or as one commenter called "dunking".
I hope this clarifies ...
You said Saying baptism saves you just isn’t supported by scripture. but yu will have to take that up with Peter, for it is he who I quoted. I have not said that "Baptism gives you the rebirth", or that "by baptism we have eternal life", for that would be heresy, and I don't believe it.
All I have said is that Peter meant something when he said Baptism now saves...we should seek to understand what he was referring to...
Peter goes on to call water baptism “An appeal to God for a good conscience”
Thank you sir. keep up the good works as they are thought-provoking. I too dropped out of the Roman institution and became an agnostic for years. Finally got it while sitting in a non-denom church after aching for the hole to be filled. God is good....
Amen He is!
With respect to your charge asking if I had read the article posted.I admit I had responded to the question posed.And had not read the article. Having read the article it appears you did speak of the sign-or the one you were expounding on.
Baptism is a sign.Even Peter !Peter 3-20-21 strongly suggests he is speaking of the sign . Equating general Baptisms with the ark and symbolically water saved 8 Adamic souls,and two of every creature. (v.20) and in like manner Baptism can be said to save those baptised in that it “provides a good conscience toward God.” having considered some of the early commentary I find Tertullian (c.198,W) 3.674,675 and (c.198,W) 3.676 —p. 53 A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs David Bericot ,Ed Hendrickson publisher 1998 reflect favorably on what you post-and I wish I had read it before I replied the first time.
Thanks Stony brook I appreciate it. I think at least this thread got a lot of people thinking and opening Bibles! God bless you-
I have never posited that baptism equates eternal life, or that it in any way justifies us or causes us to be born again. I have only sought to understand what Peter was saying when HE SAID,"Baptism now saves, not the washing away of the sins of the flesh, but the appeal to God for a good conscience based on the ressurection of Jesus..."
My conclusion? That Baptism "saves" in the sense that by publically undergoing this ordinance of our Lord, one makes clear his seperation from this doomed world, How could anyone have a problem with that simple understanding of what Peter was saying?
Remember that it is Peter that I am quoting. And that in the article I made clar that it was the blood of Jesus which purchased our pardon and redemption. I hope this helps!
A bad hermeneutic??? I have to look that up but, I think you were posting to someone else.
Instead of talking about what baptism doesn’t mean, let’s look at what the Bible actually teaches about baptism:
1. Baptism is for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)
2. There is one baptism. (Ephesians 4:5)
3. We are buried with Christ in baptism. (Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12)
4. Baptism saves, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (I Peter 3:21)
5. It (baptism) was administered to those who believed. (Mark 16:16; Acts 8:12;18:8)
6. It was administered to those who received the word. (Acts 2:41)
7. It was administered to those who repented. (Acts 2:38)
8. Through baptism our sins are washed away. (Acts 22:16)
9. We are baptized into Christ. (Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27)
10. We are baptized into the one body—the church. (I Corinthians 12:13 [vid. Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:22-23; 5:23])
Luke 7 also says Baptism justifies God!
Luke 7 also says Baptism justifies God!
You wrote:
“Baptism is not grace.”
No, but we receive grace through Baptism.
“It is an outward act that shows an inward change.”
No. It is an outward sign of an inward movement of grace.
“The thief that died with Jesus on the cross was not baptized, yet he went to paradise.”
Which says nothing against Baptism. The thief on the cross could not be baptized.
“It is not the act itself that saves.”
Grace saves. We recieve grace through Baptism.
“But it is an outward expression and a declaration to the world of the inward change.”
No. It is an outward sign of an inward movement of grace. Grace makes the true change, not merely a cerebral belief or even a change in attitude or even a determination to follow Christ. Grace is transformative. It truly has power.
You wrote:
“Baptism is like putting on a wedding ring - the ring doesn’t make you married, but it serves as an open symbol of the union.”
No. When the crowd came to believe what St. Peter preached on Pentecost they asked him what they must do. He said repent and be baptized for the FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS (Acts 2:38). When St. Paul was converted he was baptized for the FORGIVENESS OF HIS SINS (Acts 22:16).
“Asking Christ into your heart as your Savior, in acknowledgement of His sacrifice as a forgiveness of your sinful nature, is what saves you - it’s a personal relationship and requires no outside entity or substance to seal the deal - His Love and Grace do that.”
That’s a start, but as St. Peter and St. Paul showed you must be baptized. That’s exactly what St. Peter urged people to do when they asked him what they must do.
Remember that Israel never really left Egypt until she crossed the Red Sea. Egypt went in with her, but never came out the other side as she did. There is no real leaving of the ties of this world, without a valid new testament baptism whenever possible.
Remember also what happened to Jesus when He was baptized, how the Father said, This is my Son and the Holy Spirit was seen in the form of a dove.
Jesus is transforming the old testament baptism into the new covenant baptism, one with the power of God by His Grace working through it, to make us sons and daughters of God by the Holy Spirit.
Great post. All true.
For those who believe baptism is required for salvation... I’ve always wondered how the thief on the cross would be with Christ in Heaven that day if baptism were a requirement for salvation. Not a lot of time for the thief to jump down, be baptised, and hop back on his cross.
When He said, “My grace is sufficient for thee”, I’m guessing He meant it.
Also, Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn’t say “By grace and baptism and communion are ye saved...” Just grace.
Acts 16:30-31:
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Nothing about baptism.
Gee... why did you stop at verse 31? Let's continue, shall we?
Acts 16:32 And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. 33 And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes, and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately.
Interesting... there was something in your Scripture citation about Baptism after all!
Here's the point... "believe" isn't a passive word for the Christian. If we believe in God and trust is what has been given us by Christ's Sacrifice, we will DO all that He commands--just as my children can believe that school is important but it doesn't do them any good unless they get out of bed and participate in school. Yes, we are to believe... but in believing, we are to accomplish His purpose. If He said we could walk off cliffs without falling, we may believe (passively) that what He says is true... but it will be a true act of faith to step off the cliff. That is the lesson of Abraham... he believed God but his faith was in attempting to sacrifice his son at God's command.
Jesus didn't instruct His Apostles to write a book for all to memorize. He told them to Baptize in the Name of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) [Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, Rom 6:3, 1 Cor 1:13, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27]. If we believe, we are to be Baptized into His Holy Family as well.
Wow. There's cherry-picking your citations and then there's this! In order to make your own point, you truncate the Word of God which directly contradicts the point you yourself are making! You are absurd! Here is the full Scripture citation:
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
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