Posted on 03/07/2012 10:24:56 AM PST by marshmallow
Wonder what the flood was all about? Only 8 survived.
LOL
I live in Seattle. If you predict rain, you will be right most of the time. But that doesn’t make you a meteorologist :>)
Haven't you read about David and what happened after he went out and "sin boldly" with Bathsheba? He ended up paying a very grave price including virtually the ruin of his entire family, his respect with the people, and close to the destruction of his kingdom. His remaining life was spent in constant turmoil. Yet it doesn't cease God from calling him a "man after His own heart".
Jonah the same. He chose to disobey God and headed off in the opposite direction. Instead he landed right back where he was suppose to be in need of a good bath.
We can sin but there are consequences for our actions. Every law that was ever given and every command that God has ever wanted us to do is meant for our good and benefit. When we refuse to follow His divine hand and "sin boldly", we always end up in trouble. But as Luther elegantly stated, God will always brings us back to repentance. We need not worry when we sin-not if we'll sin.
So your contention is that sinning does not matter spiritually, only temporally. If you sin, God will make it tough on you during your life on earth, but if you are among the elect from before time, then you are still saved.
Now that does not square with a lot of public figures who sin boldly and yet live long and very rewarding lives. The leadership of the Democratic Party comes to mind. The Clintons were penniless beggars (relatively speaking for incoming Presidents) before traveling to Washington. Now Bill is worth what - $50 million, and living a grand life with jetsetting, all the trailer park chicks he could wish for and enough Peruvian marching dust to keep his nose in practice. And so on.
This interpretation, if that is what you proposing, is no better than the Osteens and Warrens preaching the prosperity gospel.
If the only consequence of sin is a possible temporal repercussion, then my post of John Piper is validated.
I am saying that I would do no evil if I were able,
And that, my friend, is what total depravity is all about.
No, that is about me. I must throw myself upon the mercy of Almighty God. If I were a Calvinist and predestined to either Heaven or hell, why would I? Does Calvinism reduce morality and behaviour to getting a Dairy Queen sundae or not? From my perspective it would seem so.
Hi Irish. A lot of people hand roll. :)
nor cuss around womenfolk.
Does that include Rosie O'Donnell? Note that I didn’t say anything about my beer drinking :>) or the occasional cigar.
Is there an Irishman who doesn't drink or smoke? Horrors. Tell me that you drink imported Guinness...
Who said Rosie was a woman?
I do Guinness every so often, but prefer a good ale like Smithwicks or even a Harp. Right now my favorite is Sam Adams Boston Lager or Blue Moon with an orange slice.
Once adopted into God's family then God keeps you. Some may appear to have fallen away but God will always bring them around. King David is a perfect example.
As far as unbelievers like the Clintons go, then from their perspective it doesn't matter if they sin or not. They don't care.
As for this being a "properity" gospel, I'm not sure where money enters into it. No one is saying you're going to be rich. Please remember Peter's instructions to Christians:
1Pe 4:15-16 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
Christians who think they could not do something really, really bad should simply stop and think that it is by God's grace that they don't.
If I were a Calvinist and predestined to either Heaven or hell, why would I? Does Calvinism reduce morality and behaviour to getting a Dairy Queen sundae or not?
God states that you are chosen, elect, predestined. Whom am I to argue?
As far as Dairy Queen, I was predestined for ice cream-chocolate if at all possible.
Me neither. I just think it funny that some think Calvinists are boring dullards and then others make it sound like they are out to make Christians all drink and smoke.
I realize that God created everything good.
Evil can only be an accident ,Harley or God's goodness has both evil and good in it which is not possible. Evil is always a free will decision outside of the first cause of God
Perhaps you don't understand that accidents are causes of free choices to sin in the same fashion as I can cause an accident to ram my car into another to cause harm
Adam wasn't flawed and God didn't trap Adam. Nor was judgment of Adam a change in Adam's nature. God simply showed Adam and his race that he has a disposition not to do good.
God did not show Adam he has disposition to sin before he sinned ,Harley. Adam and Eve sinned freely just the same as we do today.
The Bible condemns drunkenness, and doesn’t say anything about smoking. I prefer to not smoke due to the odors that cling to my clothes, and the poorer health I find myself in when I did smoke.
The only time I will light up a cigar is when I am doing a fireworks show or sitting around a campfire where there is already a smoke in the air.
As far as being a dullard... Here is a short list of the things I do for fun: mountain climbing, hiking, long distance bike riding, fireworks (I am a licensed pyrotech), puppets, writing, fishing, hunting, wood working, ah, the list can go on and on. Far from being a dullard, eh?
Piper is really a great preacher and man of God. I can’t say I know what is in his head or what he meant specifically, but I believe that God is sovereign and could stop any of the destruction that comes via weather. However, I also believe that He lets us reap what we have sown, which is this fallen world, including sin and death. That death should come from various means is the fruit WE planted, when Adam and Eve sinned. Meanwhile, I read a very interesting book by nuclear physicist Gerald Schroeder (”God According to God”) and he talks about the weather.
One more point. In Job, we learn that the just and righteous suffer. It rains on the just and the unjust. Evil people benefit from the good in this world - they can enjoy God’s beautiful sunsets, music, and all the good God has given us. Likewise, the righteous are subject to the evil that is rampant on this Earth.
I don’t think God is vindictive in the sense that some are taking Piper’s comments, because if that were so, I would suppose that retribution would come swift and early to people like Manson, the late Kim Jong Il, and others of their ilk.
Indeed. Otherwise he would not be God.
For some reason I can't imagine Him looking down after a tornado and saying "Oh Me!"
Words God will never utter: How did THAT happen?
Would you say that all the evil Satan creates is an accident? Would you say the betrayal of Judas was an accident? If a person chose to ram their car into someone else, that would not be an "accident". That is a deliberate choice they have made. It is no different then Adam deliberately choosing to take the fruit.
There is a certain irony in this. Christians are adamant to say they have free will, but when confronted with the fact that they choose to do evil they claim it's an accident. It's not any different then Adam telling God, "The woman YOU gave me made me do it."
It's as though we have soften the term evil with sin. We don't mind saying that we sin but we certainly don't like the idea that sin equals evil. We don't like to think of ourselves as evil but yet we don't mind thinking of ourselves as sinners. Sin = Evil.
Adam and Eve sinned freely just the same as we do today.
I just was told sin (evil) is an accident. Isn't that Aquinas' belief?
Then was Adam and Eve's sin (evil) deliberate or was it an accident? To say they sinned freely implies they deliberately KNEW that they were sinning. God certainly created Adam as good. And while God was giving Adam all sorts of positive commands to do in the garden, everything was hunky-dory. Adam certainly never said "NO". It was when God issued one command of what NOT to do that everything began to unravel. Judgment of Adam came AFTER he had already sinned.
Therefore, the fall of Adam was initiated with disobedience to a single negative command; the first negative command. The motive (i.e. pride) isn't as an important issue as what exactly happened. Adam took the opportunity to disobey, never hesitating. Eve was confused, deceived, but knew she was disobeying something. They both knew they were disobeying and they didn't see any problem in it.
We are predisposed into doing the wrong thing that we are commanded not to do. God made us good but our predisposition to choosing to be disobedient is not reflective on God; rather it is reflective on ourselves and our need to rely upon God. It is no different then God telling Cain,
Yet, no sooner had God utter those words then Cain went out and killed Able. Cain couldn't resist being disobedient because, like us, it's in our nature-our make up. Instead of turning to God to help him out, Cain chose to take the wrong path. If you want to call this "free will" then you have to own up to the fact that with our free will we choose to do evil and thus are evil (sinful) people.
And here we are many years later and God has issued another command-a positive command; believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Yet people cannot do that without the help of God; because we have lost our ability to choose to follow God's positive commands unless He provides the light.
Yes, they purposely,knowingly and freely caused the accident of sin,Harley.
God put forth goodness and is not responsible for the accident -this is just plain common sense once you understand that God can only be good and perfect,thus accidents are imperfections and not something willed by God
Busy today, I'll catch up later
As far as unbelievers like the Clintons go, then from their perspective it doesn't matter if they sin or not. They don't care.
As for this being a "properity" gospel, I'm not sure where money enters into it. No one is saying you're going to be rich. Please remember Peter's instructions to Christians:
1Pe 4:15-16 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
Christians who think they could not do something really, really bad should simply stop and think that it is by God's grace that they don't.
Well, let us take it point by point. You do not know if the Clintons are believers or not. You do not know if they are saved. If the only effect that sinning has upon one's life (and that, variably) is temporal, then certainly this is a variant of the prosperity gospel. You say that Christians 'should'. You have not in this exchange stated why they 'should'.
If I were a Calvinist and predestined to either Heaven or hell, why would I? Does Calvinism reduce morality and behaviour to getting a Dairy Queen sundae or not?
God states that you are chosen, elect, predestined. Whom am I to argue?
Am I predetermined to heaven or am I predetermined to hell? How about you?
As far as Dairy Queen, I was predestined for ice cream-chocolate if at all possible.
Raspberry/blackberry and chocolate for me, please.
Are you serious - or just rabble rousing?
If you are serious, I thought you might be interested in being informed - rather than simply having an opinion...
Does this sound like a guy who encourages sin? 8^)
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/john-pipers-message-at-passion-2012
Very serious. If the narrative is that one is predestined to either Heaven or hell, then why should one avoid sin? From either position?
If you believe that you are predestined to heaven, then since you are going to be ultimately rewarded with salvation, why not go through life having as much self-serving fun as you can?
Else, if you are predestined to hell, why not just turn vindictive and take it out on the rest of humanity? Well?
In either case, Reformed beliefs can lead to an immediate self-serving attitude.
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