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To: stfassisi
The Blessed Mother always CHOOSE the will of God freely-that is free will, Harley. ...The Blessed Mother always CHOOSE the will of God freely-that is free will, Harley.

According to Augustine's logic this was not the case.

According to the teachings of Augustine our Lord Jesus was unique in his ability to freely choose not to sin.

Now, if you would like to lay claim to say that Augustine was wrong and that Mary had the same unique property, then what you are saying is that Mary is Co-Redemptix with Christ. That is, they are on the same level and equal in every sense of the word.

If you make this claim, then as Augustine's points out, Mary's will was not free. As Christ's will was free but bounded to do the will of the Father-to redeem the earth, so Mary's will would have been bounded.

So there is the dilemma and the arguments.

1) Mary's will was bounded like Christ to do the Fathers will (and Augustine is wrong in suggesting that Christ was unique). Mary, like Christ, gave up her will and is equal in every sense of the word as Christ as Savior. Just like Christ said, "Not my will but Thine." so it would be for Mary.

2) Christ's will is unique in that He alone gave up His will to be subject to the Father's will. Mary never gave up her will but (let's say for sake of argument) that she "freely" submitted herself to every will of the Father throughout her life. This would not make her Co-Redemptrix-just someone who lived a perfect life. This means that she was not tainted by the curse of original sin, Paul would have been wrong to say that "All have sinned and fall short...", and Mary would not be in need of a Savior contrary to her own words in Luke. Thus anyone could live a perfect life without Christ. There is no such thing as original sin as Mary is clearly a child of Adam and she lived a perfect life.

So do you believe Mary to be Co-Redemptrix and agreeing that her will would not be free; or do you believe there is no such thing as original sin? Those are the choices of your argument.

BTW-Please note the numerous heresies. This is why I constantly discuss "free will". From this one concept springs just about every heresy imaginable.

613 posted on 04/29/2012 1:51:59 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

“”According to the teachings of Augustine our Lord Jesus was unique in his ability to freely choose not to sin.””

Perhaps you should stop reading Augustine through calvanist websites and realize that Augustine made retractions on things and also wrote that Mary CHOSE as is illustrated in his own words from his writings on Holy Virginity

Saint Augustine On Holy Virginity
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1310.htm

“that in her by fitting miracle the Son of God should receive the form of a servant, but, being to be a pattern to holy virgins, lest it should be thought that she alone needed to be a virgin, who had obtained to conceive a child even without sexual intercourse, she dedicated her virginity to God, when as yet she knew not what she should conceive, in order that the imitation of a heavenly life in an earthly and mortal body should take place of vow, NOT OF COMMAND; THROUGH LOVE OF CHOOSING, not through necessity of doing service.” Saint Augustine

“”then what you are saying is that Mary is Co-Redemptix with Christ. That is, they are on the same level and equal in every sense of the word.””

Co-Redemptrix does not mean equal , Harley

Here is good article from Monsignor Calkins that illustrates this

http://motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=833&Itemid=40

God included Mary in His plan for our salvation, including her sorrows with and under Christ for the sake of His Church during the actual event of our Redemption on Calvary. A dogma on Mary’s spiritual motherhood as Mediatrix of Grace and Coredemptrix would clarify that she is not equal to Christ in her role, yet would uphold her unique participation in the work of our salvation and her unique role in dispensing God’s grace to her children.

Harley, even you can participate with Christ when you bring others to him,as Saint Paul said “Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.” Col 1:24 - We do participate in the Redemption

Perhaps you should say a few Hail Mary’s yourself and your eyes might be opened to the Love Our Blessed Mother has for you too. She brings every prayer through her to her Son and it always glorifies Christ.


614 posted on 04/30/2012 4:08:22 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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