Posted on 03/18/2012 6:09:23 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
Post by Mike S
Given the increased media interest in the Church over the past year, the Mormon Newsroom recently published a document entitled “Mormonism 101: FAQ” . Overall, the document does a good job of clearing up some misconceptions about the Church, and it is very well written, but I do have an issue with some of the manner in which doctrinal things appear to have been changed. To start with, there are some things that I really like about the FAQ:
I like that the focus is on Christ. From the document:
In addition to the above, Latter-day Saints believe unequivocally that:
1. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of our loving Heavenly Father.
2. Christ’s Atonement allows mankind to be saved from their sins and return to live with God and their families forever.
3. Christ’s original Church as described in the New Testament has been restored in modern times.
In the FAQ, I also like the description of whether we are “Christian”, claiming the title through our belief in Jesus Christ, yet simultaneously accepting that there are some differences with other Christian faiths in our interpretation of what “Christian” means:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a Christian church but is neither Catholic nor Protestant. Rather, it is a restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ as originally established by the Savior in the New Testament of the Bible. The Church does not embrace the creeds that developed in the third and fourth centuries that are now central to many other Christian churches.
There are many other aspects of the FAQ I feel are really well-written. However, there are some aspects that bothered me when I read it, especially when compared with what I learned growing up in the Church over the past 4+ decades. It seems that the Church no longer wants us to be seen as a “peculiar people” with unique doctrines that set us apart, and in reading through Mormonism 101, you would think that we were like everyone else – just another denomination. This doesn’t bother me that much in and of itself, as I think there are many more commonalities between religions than the differences which we often emphasize.
The thing that perplexes me the most is that it appears that some fundamental doctrines seem to have been altered. Again, this doesn’t necessarily bother me either, as we teach that through continuing revelation our doctrine can be changed, but what seems strange is the process. Instead of addressing these things in General Conference with our prophet or an apostle teaching us new doctrine, or instead of presenting these as revealed additions to our scriptural canon, these unique doctrines seem to have been changed by press release.
So, what are these things – what has changed from what I thought was doctrine?
As Man Is, God Once Was…
One of the most profound things about the LDS faith that I learned as I grew up is our eternal potential. I was taught that God was once a man, like we are now; and importantly that we each have the potential to truly become like God. The best explanation for this teaching is from the Ensign in Feb 1982. According to the Ensign, in 1840, Lorenzo Snow had the following experience:
“While attentively listening to his explanation, the Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun at noonday, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man. I formed the following couplet which expresses the revelation, as it was shown me … “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” “I felt this to be a sacred communication…”
When Elder Snow told Joseph Smith about this in 1843, the Prophet replied: “Brother Snow, that is a true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you.” Joseph Smith himself taught this doctrine the next year in the King Follett Discourse, saying: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret… If you were to see [God] today, you would see him like a man in form – like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man.” He also taught that men may go “from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation … until (they) arrive at the station of a God.” This teaching was reemphasized by other prophets after Joseph Smith. In 1971, for example, President Joseph Fielding Smith praised President Snow, saying: “This same doctrine has of course been known to the prophets of all the ages, and President Snow wrote an excellent poetic summary of it.” The Ensign article ends with the following sentence: “It is clear that the teaching of President Lorenzo Snow is both acceptable and accepted doctrine in the Church today.”
So, this is the doctrine I was taught growing up, and is likely accepted by the majority of the members of the Church today. But, is it STILL our doctrine?
In 1997, there was a Time Magazine interview with President Hinckley. Here is a portion of the transcript of the interview:
Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follet discourse by the Prophet.
A: Yeah
Q: … about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?
A: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.
It seems like there was a distancing from the doctrine in the press. And in the current Mormonism 101: FAQ, that distancing seems to continue. Here is what is being offered to the press. In the response to the question “Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods?” there is the following:
Latter-day Saints believe that God wants us to become like Him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith. The Latter-day Saint belief is no different than the biblical teaching, which states, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Romans 8:16-17). Through following Christ’s teachings, Latter-day Saints believe all people can become “partakers of the divine nature”
Is this the same thing? Is “partakers of the divine nature” the same thing? Do we really not teach that we can become like God? If our leaders “don’t know a lot about it”, what should we believe?
Polygamy
This is a touchy subject which has been touched on in many posts before. I don’t understand it at all. I especially don’t understand what our prophets and teachers have taught about it.
From President John Taylor: “the one-wife system not only degenerates the human family, both physically and intellectually, but it is entirely incompatible with philosophical notions of immortality; it is a lure to temptation, and has always proved a curse to a people” From Brigham Young: “Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men … this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers… Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord’s servants have always practices it. And is that religion popular in heaven? It is the only popular religion there…” And so on. There are quotes by other apostles and prophets extolling the virtues of polygamy and the evils of monogamy. It was accepted as doctrine and still exists as a doctrine in our canonized scripture, although we no longer practice it in mortality.
Among active LDS members in early Utah, the percentage of people practicing it varied. It was certainly very common among prominent Church leaders. In areas like St George, approximately 30-40% of the families in the community were polygamous. Other estimates range from 20-30% for different communities. So, while polygamy was practiced by a minority of the members-at-large, it was still a fairly high number. Additionally, a majority of the higher ranking leaders lived the doctrine and taught it as the standard for God’s people, with monogamy being an evil.
From the Mormonism 101 FAQ:
There are more than 14 million members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not one of them is a polygamist. The practice of polygamy is strictly prohibited in the Church. The general standard of marriage in the Church has always been monogamy, as indicated in the Book of Mormon (see Jacob 2:27). For periods in the Bible polygamy was practiced by the patriarchs Abraham and Jacob, as well as kings David and Solomon. It was again practiced by a minority of Latter-day Saints in the early years of the Church. Polygamy was officially discontinued in 1890 — 122 years ago. Those who practice polygamy today have nothing whatsoever to do with the Church.
Granted, practicing polygamy today is strictly prohibited and will get you excommunicated, but is the press-release trying to whitewash our history by going further? Has the general standard or ideal for the Church “always been monogamy” as stated in the press-release, or was it actually taught as doctrine by prophets and apostles? Reading teachings of actual leaders at that time makes you at least suspect that it was the latter.
Race
This has been addressed in a number of recent posts, so I won’t go into any detail here. But here is the FAQ from Mormonism 101:
People of all races have always been welcomed and baptized into the Church since its beginning. In fact, by the end of his life in 1844 Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, opposed slavery. During this time some black males were ordained to the priesthood. At some point the Church stopped ordaining male members of African descent, although there were a few exceptions. It is not known precisely why, how or when this restriction began in the Church, but it has ended. Church leaders sought divine guidance regarding the issue and more than three decades ago extended the priesthood to all worthy male members. The Church immediately began ordaining members to priesthood offices wherever they attended throughout the world.
Really? Prophets and apostles taught as doctrine that blacks could not have the priesthood. It took a major revelation to change the doctrine / policy. Yet we don’t even know where the doctrine came from?
Location of the Garden of Eden
I grew up back East, although my grandparents lived in Utah. Nearly every year, we would take a car trip back to visit, stopping at many interesting sites along the way. These included Church historical sites as well as non-religious sites. One of the areas that captured my young imagination was visiting Adam-ondi-Ahman. We read scriptures like D&C 116:1, which states that “Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people…” We also read D&C 107:53, which states “Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.”
These are heady concepts. To be standing in the place where Adam and Enoch stood was profound. I looked around and imagined the Garden of Eden nearby. There are stories of Joseph Smith even identifying stones that were used by Adam for the altar when he was kicked out of the Garden. And even more profound things were promised for the future. Prophets and apostles taught that in the last days, the leaders of the Church would be called back to the same place. Christ would appear and receive all of the keys back from the leaders of the various dispensations, thereby ending things back where it all started. Again, it is something that I always accepted as doctrine.
But now from Mormonism 101: FAQ:
We do not know exactly where the original site of the Garden of Eden is. While not an important or foundational doctrine, Joseph Smith established a settlement in Daviess County, Missouri, and taught that the Garden of Eden was somewhere in that area. Like knowing the precise number of animals on Noah’s ark, knowing the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important to one’s salvation than believing in the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
I don’t know what to make of this. After canonized revelation and statements from prophets and apostles, we don’t know the vicinity where the Garden of Eden is? And it’s not an “important or foundational doctrine”, even when we teach that one of the most vital things to occur in the last days prior to the Second Coming is a gathering in that area?
———————-
So, I have mixed feelings. I’m confused. As I mentioned at the beginning of this post, there are many things I like about the Mormonism 101: FAQ document. I like the emphasis on Christ. I like the emphasis on serving others. But I do wonder if white-washing things is the best approach. Are we splitting hairs in our press-releases, arguing over what the definition of “is” is? Are we trying to skirt the uncomfortable things at the cost of integrity?
And more importantly, what IS our doctrine? If things taught as doctrine by prior apostles and prophets in talks, General Conference, magazine articles, etc. are merely dismissed by saying that we don’t really know what they were saying or what they really meant by what they were saying or if they really said what we thought they were saying in the context in which they said it or… You get the picture.
So, I’m confused. Do we believe that God was once like us or not? Do we believe that we can become like God or not? Was polygamy taught as an important doctrine, or has “the standard of the church always been monogamy”? Do we really not know how a doctrine as important as blacks and the priesthood came about even though it took a revelation to change? Do we believe that Adam-ondi-Ahman has any significance or meaning in our church or not? And finally, how do we define doctrine? By addressing it in a conference talk? By including it in our canonized scriptures?
Or do we define what we “believe” by press release, even though it may contradict prior apostles and prophets
Ping
Lying for the Lord alert ...
place marker
Don’t go there without a deprogrammer in tow!
thanks for posting!
Let me simplify: mormonism is not Christianity.
Thankfully, Mormonism does not share the innate violence of Islam. There was some violence in the days of Brigham Young, but it is not essential to the religion.
But Mormonism does seem to have one practice in common with Islam: It’s OK to lie to outsiders. Takiya. Mohammed even demonstrated that it’s OK to swear a solemn oath to infidels, and then to break your oath, as he did with the Jews of Mecca and Medina during the Hegira. I don’t know if Mormons would go that far. But lying in order to make their religion more credible to outsiders has been a regular practice.
Maybe sect is the wrong word, but it’s kind of like a Masonic or other secret society. You don’t really know what’s in the religion until you have joined it, moved up the ladder, and proven yourself.
Sorry, but that’s my take on it. It’s OK if Mormons want to do that, but I think others should realize what’s going on, especially if we might be heading for a Mormon President.
yep-
And the biggest lie:-
“God was once man”- actually this is blasphemy
“We can become like God”- another blasphemy-
Geee.. where have I heard this before? Adam and Eve
being seduced by the serpent?
Article Excerpt “Joseph Smith as a Prophet”
Source: exmormon.org
The following prophecies made by Joseph Smith have not been fulfilled in over 150 years. They are given in approximate chronological order, except for the many Missouri prophecies, which are grouped together.
PEACE AND KNOWLEDGE: Sept 21, 1823. Joseph Smith says in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith 2:40, that Moroni told him that Isaiah 11 was “about to be fulfilled.” Isaiah 11:6-11 prophesies that the wolf and the lamb, the calf and the lion, etc. shall dwell in peace together, and that nothing will “hurt or destroy,” and that the earth shall be “full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”
FULFILLMENT: None of this has yet come to pass.
SALE OF BOOK OF MORMON COPYRIGHT: Winter 1829-1830. Comp Hist 1:165 Joseph had a revelation that Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery were to go to Toronto to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon to raise money.
FULFILLMENT: They went, according to the revelation, but were completely unsuccessful. Joseph Smith “inquired of God” and was told that some “revelations” are not from God. David Whitmer reports this incident in his book An Address To All Believers In Christ, Richmond, 1887, photo reprinting by Utah Lighthouse Ministry, pp 30-31. (See the comment above on the test of a true prophecy.)
PRAYERS ANSWERED: September 1830. D&C 29:6. Jesus promises the Saints that “Whatsoever ye shall ask in faith... ye shall receive.” (see also D&C 132:40) Joseph Smith believed firmly in this promise (see Chron JS Mar 10, 1844)
FULFILLMENT: The prayers of the faithful Mormons, especially during the periods of conflict in Kirtland, Missouri, and Nauvoo undoubtedly included many requests for divine aid, victory over their enemies, and peace in their lands. Surely they asked for these things. But instead they were driven out and found no peace. This prophecy is probably failing thousands of times a day, as faithful Mormons pray. (This prophecy is just a repetition of Jesus’ promise at Matt 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, 15:7, 16:23, and 1 John 3:22.)
SAINTS GATHERED IN ONE PLACE: September 1830. D&C 29:8 God has decreed that the elect shall be gathered into one place “against the day when tribulation and desolation are sent forth upon the wicked.”
FULFILLMENT: The “one place” continued to change as the Mormons were driven from one temporary refuge to the next. After arriving in Utah, the Mormons viewed that as the gathering place. But the modern church apparently no longer believes in this gathering, since it encourages new converts to remain in their homelands. Tribulation and desolation have not been sent forth upon the wicked.
WICKED WILL BURN, ALL PROPHECIES FULFILLED: September 1830. D&C 29:9-11. “For the hour is nigh and the day soon at hand” when the wicked will burn, all prophecies will be fulfilled, and Jesus will return for a thousand years.
FULFILLMENT: This is another prophecy such as Ezekiel 12:27-28 referred to: if the hour were nigh and the day soon at hand, this surely would have been fulfilled within 160 years. By no means have all prophecies been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled.
ALL NATIONS SHALL BOW: March 1831. D&C 49:9-10. The nations of the earth shall bow to the Mormon gospel or they “shall come down” and “shall be laid low of power.”
FULFILLMENT: None of the nations of the earth have accepted the Mormon gospel or “bowed” to it, yet none have been “laid low” because of it.
MISSOURI PROPHECIES
Joseph Smith made a number of prophecies regarding Missouri as the location of Zion and the gathering place and refuge for the saints. Since they all have the same general meaning and none of them have been fulfilled, they are dealt with together here.
March 7, 1831. D&C 45:64-74. Saints are to gather riches and purchase an inheritance to be called New Jerusalem, also called Zion, a place of refuge and safety, where the wicked will not come, and against which the wicked will refuse to battle. The righteous will come from all nations and sing songs of everlasting joy. The wicked will fear and stand afar off and tremble, and “all nations shall be afraid.”
July 1831. D&C 57:1-3 Missouri is named as the land consecrated for the gathering of the Saints and the place for the City of Zion and the building of a temple at Independence. It will be purchased by the saints “for an ever-lasting inheritance.”
August 13, 1831. D&C 62:1, 6. The faithful will be preserved and rejoice in Missouri. “I, the Lord, promise the faithful and cannot lie.”
Sept 22-23, 1832. D&C 84:2-5, 31 Zion will be built with its temple at Independence, “in this generation”. This generation shall not all pass away until the temple will be built upon the spot. Orson Pratt in 1870 reiterated the prophecy (JD 9:71, 10:344, 13:362) and insisted that it will come to pass within the generation living in 1832.
Jan 4, 1833. HC 1:315-316. Joseph Smith says “by the authority of Jesus Christ” that “not many years shall pass away” before the wicked “of this generation” will be swept from off the face of the land and the Lost Ten Tribes will be gathered to Missouri, and that “there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled.”
Aug 2, 1833. D&C 97:18-20. Promise that if the saints are obedient the City of Zion (in Missouri) will prosper and become glorious, great and terrible, honored by the nations of the earth. Zion cannot fall or be moved out of its place.
FULFILLMENT: Mormons were driven out of Independence and from all of their settlements in Missouri in 1839. The temple lot is not owned by the Mormon church. No one living in the generation when the prophecy was made is still alive. The wicked of that generation were no more “swept from off the face of the land” than were their contemporary Mormons. The Lost Ten Tribes have not been gathered to Missouri. Nothing in all these prophecies has been fulfilled, even though the majority of the saints steadfastly followed Joseph Smith and were faithful.
Oct 12, 1833. D&C 100:13-15 Zion (Missouri) will be chastened “for a little season” but then “redeemed.”
Dec 10, 1833. HC 1:455. Joseph Smith tells the saints that they should retain their lands in Missouri and seek legal redress against their enemies. If they should not obtain it, God will avenge them with “ten thousand of his Saints” and all their adversaries would be destroyed.
FULFILLMENT: The Mormons lost all their lands in Missouri; they did seek legal redress but were unsuccessful; their enemies were not destroyed; their wrongs were not avenged; the Mormons were driven out of Missouri.
Dec 16, 1833. D&C 101:17-20 Zion (Missouri) shall not be moved out of its place; the Saints will receive their inheritance there, and there is no other place than Missouri appointed by God for the gathering of the Saints.
Feb 24, 1834. D&C 103:5-7 If the Saints will hearken to the counsel of the Lord, “they shall, for I have decreed it, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour... and... they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued under my feet, and the earth is given unto the saints, to possess it forever and ever.” Verse 15: “The redemption of Zion must needs come by power;” and God will raise up a man like Moses, namely Joseph Smith, who will enable them to “possess the goodly land” (v. 20). Joseph Smith is to organize Zion’s Camp (a Mormon army) and relieve the distress of the Saints in Missouri. Verse 36: “All victory and glory is brought to pass unto you through your diligence, faithfulness and prayers of faith.”
Spring 1834. Joseph Smith prophesies to the members of Zion’s Camp that “within three years they should march to Jackson County and there should not be a dog to open his mouth against them.” Reed Peck Manuscript p. 3 [cited in Tanner, The Mormon Kingdom 1:4]
FULFILLMENT: Zion’s Camp was organized but utterly failed and it disbanded in July. Cholera decimated them and the campaign did not restore the saints to their homes. They did not return as Zion’s Camp. The Mormons continued to encounter fierce opposition. The Mormons never prevailed against their enemies. (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel through the Ages, p. 282, “Reed Peck Manuscript” p. 3; HC 3:xxxix [cited in Tanner, The Mormon Kingdom 1:4].
June 22, 1834. D&C 105:13-15. The Lord says regarding Missouri: “I will fight your battles... the destroyer I have sent forth to destroy and lay waste mine enemies; and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute mine heritage, and to blaspheme my name upon the lands which I have consecrated for the gathering together of my saints.”
FULFILLMENT: The Missouri opponents of the Mormons were not destroyed, but have remained in Missouri (and “polluted” it?) The Mormons were driven out of Missouri within five years.
Aug 16, 1834. HC 2:145. Joseph Smith says that the Spirit of the Lord tells him that the Saints should be ready to move into Jackson County, Missouri, on September 11, 1836, “which is the appointed time for the redemption of Zion.”
FULFILLMENT: If Zion was redeemed in 1836, it was unredeemed in 1839, when the Mormons abandoned Missouri.
FAR WEST TEMPLE: April 26, 1838. D&C 115. Revelation concerning the city of Far West, Missouri, and the building of a temple there. God commands the temple to be built; the church will be gathered to Zion (Missouri), which will be “for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm.” Work on the temple is to commence in the summer of 1838, with construction to begin April 26, 1839, with work to continue “diligently until it shall be finished, from the corner stone thereof unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished.” (v. 12) Verse 17: “I say unto you, it is my will that the city of Far West should be built up speedily by the gathering of my saints.”
FULFILLMENT: The temple cornerstone was laid, but no more work was ever done and the temple is still not completed. Far West was abandoned by the Mormons soon after this revelation. It would appear that the building of the Far West temple was not the work of God, since God’s work cannot be frustrated (see D&C 3:3).
LIBERTY JAIL PROPHECIES: March 20, 1839. D&C 121. This is “Prayer and Prophecies” from Joseph Smith while he was a prisoner in the jail at Liberty, Missouri. It contains several prophecies:
he will be avenged of his enemies by the sword (v. 5) (this is phrased as a prayer, but God had promised Joseph Smith that his prayers would be answered; he need only ask. D&C 29:6)
his friends will not charge him with transgressions (v. 10)
the hopes of those who do charge him with transgression shall have their hope blasted (v. 11)
God will “change the times and seasons” (v. 12)
Joseph Smith’s enemies will be taken “in their own craftiness” (v. 12)
“not many years hence, ... [his enemies] and their posterity shall be swept from under heaven, saith God, that not one of them is left to stand by the wall.” (v. 15)
knowledge will be poured down from heaven upon the heads of the Mormons.
FULFILLMENT: None of these prophecies came to pass. Joseph Smith’s enemies were not destroyed “by the sword;” rather, the Mormons were successfully driven out of Missouri. His friends did charge him with transgressions within a few years, and those charges (in The Nauvoo Expositor) resulted directly in his arrest and destruction, as his enemies wished. God did not “change the times and seasons,” whatever that may mean. In general, the enemies of the Mormons achieved their goal of driving the Mormons out and destroying Joseph Smith. Their posterity was not destroyed, but survived. At least, there is no record of the anti-Mormon Missourians being swept away. And what knowledge has been “poured down from heaven” upon the Mormons since 1839?
(One might wonder why Smith spent so long in prison; according to the Book of Mormon , Mormon 8:24, faith can make prison walls tumble.)
End of the Missouri prophecies
Nov 3, 1831. D&C 133:17. “The hour of [Christ’s Second] coming is nigh.”
Nov 13, 1833. “...a sure sign that the coming of Christ is clost [close] at hand.”
April 23, 1834. D&C 104:59. “...to prepare my people for the time when I shall dwell with them, which is nigh at hand.”
Nov 25, 1834. D&C 106:4. “The coming of the Lord draweth nigh...”
Apr 3, 1836, D&C 110:16. “The great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.”
Feb 14, 1835. HC 2:182. Joseph Smith preached that the coming of the Lord would be in 56 years (i.e., about 1891). This prophecy also occurs in his diary for April 6, 1843 and HC 5:336. See also D&C 130:14-17. Joseph Smith prophesies that “there of those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes.” He prophesies “in the name of the Lord God - let it be written: that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890.” (The official historians have deleted the last phrase, beginning with “48 years” from the church history, but it is contained in the original diary.) The version in D&C 130 is phrased negatively, i.e., Christ will not come before 1890. It is also made conditional on Joseph Smith living to the age of 85. Joseph Smith says (v 16) that it might merely mean that if he lives to 85 he will go where Christ is, and therefore see his face. But that interpretation would not make sense if the revelation is in response to Joseph Smith’s inquiry about the time of the second coming (v 14).
FULFILLMENT: The second coming did not occur about 1891, and the Church does not claim that it did. Nor has it occurred since. Joseph Smith did not live to be 85 years old. God must have known that he would not. Why would God make a revelation conditional upon an event which he knew would never happen?
NATIONS SHALL TREMBLE: Nov 3, 1831. D&C 133:42 “...all nations shall tremble at thy presence.”
FULFILLMENT: No one can claim that all nations tremble at the presence of the Mormons.
ENEMIES WILL BE SHAMED: Dec 1, 1831. D&C 71:7-10 Mormons are to call upon their enemies to meet them both in public and in private, and the shame of their enemies shall be made manifest. “No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper.”
FULFILLMENT: The Mormons are generally reluctant to discuss their religion with anyone but prospective converts, but, when they have been willing to meet with their critics and debate, they have not been particularly able to make their opponents’ shame manifest. The Missourians and the residents of Hancock County, Illinois, who “formed weapons” against the Mormons, were successful in driving them out.
NEW YORK WILL BE DESTROYED: Sept 22-23, 1832. D&C 84:114-115. New York, Albany and Boston will be destroyed if they reject the gospel. The “hour of their judgment is nigh...”
FULFILLMENT: Newell K. Whitney and Joseph Smith went to New York, Albany, and Boston and preached there. These cities did not accept the gospel. They have not been destroyed.
THE END OF ALL NATIONS: Dec 25, 1832. D&C 87. Prophecy of the rebellion of South Carolina, war between the states. The South will call on Great Britain for aid, and as a result war will be poured out upon all nations; slaves will revolt; the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; famine, plague, earthquake, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations will result.
FULFILLMENT: This prophecy is the one most often cited by Mormons to prove Joseph Smith’s prophetic power. However, most Mormons are unaware of the political situation in America at the time it was made. In November 1832 South Carolina had declared its power to “nullify” any federal act, and President Jackson was prepared to go to war to enforce federal authority. Most people expected war. Thus the “prophecy” did no more than reflect commonly held opinion. Even when the South did finally revolt, in 1861, although Great Britain came to its assistance, other elements of the prophecy were not fulfilled: slaves did not rise up, war was not poured out upon all nations, there was no world- wide famine, plague, earthquake, etc., and there was no resulting “end of all nations.” Morris, PJS, contends that World War I, the associated famines, the 1918 influenza epidemic, fulfill this prophecy. But these are not as a result of the American Civil War. (see Chron JS, Dec 1832) Not even Morris claims that there were earthquakes because of it.
STARS WILL FALL: Dec 27, 1832. D&C 88:87. Earth shall tremble and reel, the sun shall not give light, the moon shall be bathed in blood, the stars shall “become exceedingly angry” and fall, all “not many days hence.”
FULFILLMENT: More than 59,000 days have now passed, and this prophecy has not been fulfilled. It is doubtful that in any sense the stars will ever fall. (This is a paraphrase of Isa 13:10, as re-paraphrased by Matt 24:29 and Mark 13:25.)
DESTROYING ANGEL WILL PASS BY: Feb 27, 1833. D&C 89. The “Word of Wisdom” promises that those who obey it (i.e., by abstaining from hot or strong drinks and from tobacco) shall “receive health in their navel...; find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge...; and shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And... the destroying angel shall pass by them... and not slay them.”
FULFILLMENT: Most Mormons observe the “Word of Wisdom” faithfully. Although Mormons have been shown statistically to have fewer health problems than the average American, they still seem to be subject to being slain by the destroying angel. Nor do they seem to have greater wisdom and knowledge than others because of their avoidance of coffee, alcohol and tobacco.
THE UNITED ORDER - EVERLASTING: Apr 23, 1834. D&C 104. Revelation establishing a separate United Order in Missouri, to be “everlasting” (v 1), “immutable and unchangeable” (v 2), to benefit the church “until I come” (v 1). “This is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints...” (v 16).
FULFILLMENT: The United Order (holding all property in common) failed, even though the saints tried valiantly to make it work. It was attempted in Ohio, Missouri and Utah. Nowhere did it survive. It was not everlasting. It was not immutable or unchangeable, since it was tried with numerous variations. It has not provided for the saints. It has not lasted until the Lord has come.
MORMON DEBTS WILL BE PAID: April 23, 1834. D&C 104: 78-83. God’s promise to deliver the Saints from their debts. “It is my will that you shall pay all your debts.” The Lord will soften the hearts of their creditors.
FULFILLMENT: Joseph Smith and other prominent Mormons had to flee Kirtland to avoid their creditors, leaving debts of thousands of dollars unpaid. Smith ultimately filed bankruptcy.
ORSON HYDE’S PREPARATION OF JEWS’ RETURN: Feb 14, 1835. Joseph Smith prophesied that Orson Hyde would go to Jerusalem, and “by thy hands shall the Most High do a great work, which shall prepare the way and greatly facilitate the gathering of that people.” [Morris, PJS p 261]
FULFILLMENT: Orson Hyde did go to Jerusalem, but did not do anything to greatly facilitate the gathering of the Jews, which did not occur until over 100 years later.
APOSTLES IN FOREIGN LANDS AND HEAVEN: Jan 21, 1836. HC 2:380-381. Joseph Smith had vision of the future (thus, by implication, a prophecy) in which he saw “the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, who are now upon the earth... in foreign lands, standing together in a circle, much fatigued, with their clothes tattered and feet swollen...” He saw “Elder M’Lellin in the south, standing upon a hill, surrounded by a vast multitude, preaching to them [and performing a miraculous healing].” He also saw Brigham Young “standing in a strange land, in the far south and west, in a desert place... preaching to them in their own tongue..” He also “saw the Twelve in the celestial kingdom of God.”
FULFILLMENT: The Quorum of Twelve as constituted at the time of this revelation never was together in a foreign land as described. William E. M’Lellin never preached in the South, and was excommunicated May 11, 1838, just over two years after the prophecy. Brigham Young never preached to the inhabitants of any “strange land” in their own tongue. If Mormon doctrine is correct, five of the apostles seen by Joseph Smith “in the celestial kingdom” should never be there, because they apostatized or were excommunicated: Lyman Johnson, Luke S. Johnson, William E. M’Lellin, John F. Boynton, and William Smith.
SALEM, MASS., WILL BELONG TO MORMONS: Aug 6, 1836. D&C 111. Joseph Smith received a revelation telling him to go to Salem, Massachusetts. This section is the revelation given to him when he and his companions had arrived there. It promises that they would receive the city and “have power over it” and “its wealth pertaining to gold and silver” should be theirs.
FULFILLMENT: Joseph Smith returned in September to Kirtland. Neither he nor the Mormons ever had power over the city, nor did they receive its gold and silver.
KIRTLAND’S MORMON BANK WILL PROSPER: Jan 1837. LDS Mess & Adv. 3:443 Joseph Smith says it is “wisdom and according to the mind of the Holy Spirit” that the saints should invest in the Kirtland Safety Society. Wilford Woodruff’s journal Jan 6, 1837, records that Joseph Smith declared “that he [Joseph Smith] had received that morning the word of the Lord upon the subject of the Kirtland Safety Society,” and that “if we would give heed to the commandments the Lord had given this morning all would be well.” [cited in Tanner, MSR 531] John F. Boynton, apostle, said that he understood that the bank was established because it was the will of God (HC 2:509-510) Joseph Smith prophesied that like Aaron’s rod the bank would swallow up other banks “and grow and flourish ... and survive when all others should be laid in ruins.” Zion’s Watchman March 24, 1838 [cited in Brodie p 195]
FULFILLMENT: The Kirtland Safety Society Bank, renamed the Anti- Banking Company, was organized Nov 2, 1836. It failed to receive a charter from the state, and Joseph Smith and S. Rigdon were convicted and fined $1000 for illegal banking. The bank failed miserably. Those who had invested in it lost their investment. (Comp Hist 1:401-402)
KIRTLAND LAND INVESTORS WILL BE RICH: April 1837. LDS Mess & Adv Apr 1837 p 488 [cited in Brodie 202] “This place [Kirtland, Ohio] must be built up, and will be built up, and every brother that will take hold and help secure and discharge these [land] contracts shall be rich.”
FULFILLMENT: Nobody became rich investing in Kirtland land contracts. Most of those involved in the Kirtland land speculation, encouraged by Joseph Smith, lost money. Joseph Smith himself went bankrupt and had to flee his creditors.
PROPHECY ABOUT THOMAS MARSH: July 23, 1837. D&C 112. Revelation to Thomas B. Marsh, then the president of the quorum of the Twelve Apostles, prophesying that he would be “exalted,” that he would preach to Jews and Gentiles “unto the ends of the earth,” “among the mountains, and among many nations.” Marsh is told that “by thy word many high ones shall be brought low, and .. many low ones shall be exalted.” In verse 11 Marsh is told that “I [God] know thy heart.”
FULFILLMENT: Less than two years later, on March 17, 1839, Marsh was excommunicated. God apparently did not know his heart. Marsh never preached the Mormon gospel as was prophesied, but was a bitter enemy of the church for many years. He later repented and rejoined the church, but this prophecy was never fulfilled.
PROPHECY ABOUT DAVID W. PATTEN: April 17, 1838. D&C 114:1. Revelation concerning David W. Patten, an apostle, directing him to settle his business up so that he could go on a mission “next spring...to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world.”
FULFILLMENT: Less than eight months later Patten was dead, killed leading Mormons in the Battle of Crooked River on October 25, 1838. He never went on the mission as prophesied. It cannot be that his lack of faith frustrated the revelation, since Joseph Smith said of him that he “died as he had lived, a man of God, and strong in the faith.” HC 3:171.
PROPHECY ABOUT OLIVER GRANGER: July 8, 1838. D&C 117:12-15. Revelation and prophecy regarding Oliver Granger: “his name shall be had in sacred remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord... let the blessings of my people be on him forever and ever.”
FULFILLMENT: No Mormon knows anything about Oliver Granger beyond this mention in the D&C. As far as the Mormon people are concerned, Oliver Granger has been forgotten, rather than “had in sacred remembrance ... forever and ever.”
JOSEPH SMITH WILL BE SUCCEEDED BY HIS SON JOSEPH: April 22, 1839 and Aug 27, 1834. Joseph Smith says that he will be succeeded by his oldest son, Joseph Smith III. [Quinn pp 630, 638]
FULFILLMENT: Joseph Smith III left the main body of Mormons when they went to Utah under Brigham Young. Thus, according to the Utah church, he did not become his father’s successor in the Utah church. He became president of the Reorganized Church in 1860.
PROPHECY ABOUT GEORGE MILLER: Jan 19, 1841. D&C 124:20-21. Revelation and prophecy regarding George Miller. He “is without guile; he may be trusted...; I, the Lord, love him... Let no man despise my servant George, for he shall honor me.”
FULFILLMENT: On December 3, 1848, George Miller was disfellowshipped by the Mormons. Apparently God was mistaken about Miller.
NAUVOO HOUSE WILL ALWAYS BE SMITH’S: Jan 19, 1841. D&C 124:56, 60. God orders the building of the Nauvoo House, a hotel, in which Joseph Smith and his “house” will have “place” “from generation to generation.”
FULFILLMENT: Nauvoo House was never fully completed. Joseph Smith never lived in it; his widow Emma was living in it at her death, but his family have not owned or occupied it since then. It is owned by the Reorganized Church of LDS.
KIRTLAND WILL BE BUILT UP: Jan 19, 1841. D&C 124:83. God says that he will “build up Kirtland [Ohio]” after he has scourged its [non-Mormon] inhabitants. The implication is that it will be built up for the Saints.
FULFILLMENT: The Mormons never returned to Kirtland, except in very few numbers. The inhabitants never suffered any “scourge.” The Reorganized Church holds title to the temple there.
CITY OF ZARAHEMLA, IOWA: March 1841. D&C 125:1-4. Revelation directing the Mormons to build a city called Zarahemla in Iowa, across the river from Nauvoo.
FULFILLMENT: No such city was ever built.
QUEENS WILL CONTRIBUTE: Apr 28, 1842. Joseph Smith prophesies about the newly-founded Relief Society: “before ten years... the queens of the earth shall come and pay their respects to this Society. They shall come with their millions and shall contribute of their abundance for the relief of the poor.” [Quinn p. 634]
FULFILLMENT: By 1852 no queens of the earth had done anything resembling what Joseph Smith prophesied, nor have they done so since.
POWER TO DETECT FALSITY: April 28, 1842. Joseph Smith gives the sisters of the Relief Society “and the Elders” the keys of the kingdom “that they may be able to detect everything false.” [Quinn p. 634]
FULFILLMENT: Apparently by the 1980s the Elders no longer had these keys, since they were unable to detect the forgeries foisted on them by Mark Hofmann, but rather esteemed him an authority on rare Mormon documents, paying him thousands of dollars for his forgeries. The church leaders learned of his deception from the secular authorities, when he was arrested for murders he had committed in furthering his schemes against the church. See any of several excellent accounts of this affair, e.g. Naifeh and Smith, The Mormon Murders, New York, 1988.
PROPHECY ABOUT ANSON CALL: Aug 6, 1842. Anson Call Diary [cited in Morris PJS]. Joseph Smith prophesies that Anson Call will “go and assist in building cities from one end of the country to the other and ... shall perform as great a work as has ever been done by man, and the nations of the earth shall be astonished...”
FULFILLMENT: Anson Call assisted in building Fillmore, Utah (population in 1970: 1411). He did not assist in building cities from one end of the country to the other. He did not perform any work “as great ... as has ever been done by man,” or at which the nations of the earth were astonished.
JOSEPH SMITH WILL TRIUMPH: September 1, 1842. D&C 127:2. Joseph Smith prophesies that he “shall triumph over all my enemies.”
FULFILLMENT: His enemies murdered him less than two years after this prophecy.
JOSEPH SMITH IN PALESTINE: January 20, 1843. Joseph Smith prophesies to Orson Hyde that the two of them will drink wine together in Palestine. (JS MS Diary)
FULFILLMENT: Joseph Smith never was in Palestine. (His drinking wine would have been a violation of the Word of Wisdom)
US GOVERNMENT WILL BE DESTROYED: May 18, 1843. HC 5:394, also Mill Star 22:455. Joseph Smith prophesies “by virtue of the holy priesthood... and in the name of the Lord” that if Congress or the United States will not redress the wrongs which the Mormons suffered in Missouri, and grant them protection, “the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted,” they shall be “broken up as a government” and there will be nothing left of them. (A similar prophecy was made Dec 16, 1843. See Quinn p 641, Chron JS 189)
FULFILLMENT: The United States rejected the Mormons’ petitions; their wrongs were not redressed; they were not protected from their enemies. The United States government was never overthrown and is still in existence.
JOSEPH SMITH WILL BE MADE RULER AND STRENGTHENED: July 12, 1843. D&C 132:53. “I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things;... and from henceforth I will strengthen him.”
FULFILLMENT: At the time of this prophecy Joseph Smith was at the height of his power. He was never a ruler over any more than at that time. In less than one year he was dead, not strengthened.
MORE WILL BE REVEALED ABOUT PLURAL MARRIAGE: July 12, 1843. Revelation and prophecies regarding plural marriage. D&C 132.66 says that “pertaining to this law [the law of plural marriage] I will reveal more unto you, hereafter.”
FULFILLMENT: The church has not said that it has received any subsequent revelation on this subject except to say that plural marriage will not be practiced by the church.
PLURAL MARRIAGE WILL ALWAYS BE PRACTICED: D&C 132 was interpreted by Brigham Young [see Tanners, MSR p 228] to mean that the principle of plural marriage, once it had been made known, had to be lived and practiced by anyone to whom it had been made known, or that person would be damned, and only by living in plural marriage could one receive the highest exaltation. Verse 3-4: “all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same. For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned, for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.” See also verses 6, 21, 33. The principle of plural marriage is referred to as a “new and everlasting covenant.” John Taylor, third president and prophet, interpreted this to mean that the church could never give up the principle of plural marriage.
FULFILLMENT: Plural marriage was practiced by the Mormons secretly until 1852 (and the church lied during that time, vehemently denying any such doctrine or practice), then openly until 1890, when the church announced to the world that it had stopped performing plural marriages (although they continued to be performed secretly by high church authorities for about another 15 years). Any Mormon who now enters into a plural marriage is likely to be excommunicated by the church, even if the Mormon lives in a jurisdiction where polygamy is not illegal. The attempt by God to institute plural marriage among the Mormons was frustrated and abandoned by them.
MORMONS WILL NO LONGER HAVE TO COOK: Feb 6, 1844. Joseph Smith prophesies that within five years the Mormons would be able to live without cooking their food. (Joseph Smith manuscript diary, omitted from the HC. Cited in Quinn, p. 642).
FULFILLMENT: The Mormons are still cooking their food.
DAVID SMITH WILL BE PRESIDENT AND KING: April 1844. Joseph Smith prophesies that his unborn child will be called David, and will be “president and king of Israel.” (cited in Quinn p 644)
FULFILLMENT: The child was called David. However, he was never “president and king of Israel.” He died in 1904, at the age of 60, having spent the last 27 years of his life in an insane asylum. He was a member of the Reorganized Church. His highest position in that church was counsellor to the president, but he never actually served as such.
MORMONS WILL TRIUMPH OVER ENEMIES: June 19, 1844. Mormon Neighbor. Joseph Smith warns others not to interfere in Mormon affairs, “for as sure as there is a God in Israel, we shall ride triumphant over all oppression.”
FULFILLMENT: Within 10 days of this prophetic warning, Joseph Smith was killed by the mob, and within three years the Mormons had abandoned Nauvoo.
PROPHECY ABOUT W. W. PHELPS: Date unknown. Prophecy made to W. W. Phelps, cited in Stenhouse, Rocky Mountain Saints, p. 42, that Phelps would not taste of death till Jesus came.
FULFILLMENT: W. W. Phelps died March 7, 1872, apparently before Jesus came.
PROPHECIES OF JOSEPH SMITH WHICH WERE FULFILLED (?)
MOVE TO THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS: Aug 6, 1842. HC, George Q. Cannon Diary, Anson Call Diary (which gives the date as 1843), cited in Morris, PJS. Prophecy that the Mormons would continue to suffer affliction and would finally move to the Rocky Mountains and become a mighty people.
FULFILLMENT: Joseph Smith sent scouts West in 1843 to look for a place to settle, and again on Feb 21, 1844 he instructed the Twelve to explore the West. He was considering Oregon, California, and Texas, as well as the Great Basin, as the next Zion. [Quinn p 635] The Mormons did move to the Rocky Mountains and became the most powerful segment of society in Utah, as well as an influential force in several other Western states, a position which they have maintained and continue to strengthen.
However, the Call diary was not actually written until years later, from memory, and the manuscript of the HC dates only from 1845 (after JS’s death), where the words of this prophecy appear only as an interlinear insertion which could only have been made after the Mormons actually arrived in Utah. Thus it appears that this “prophecy” is a forgery. See MPM 85-86.
PROPHECY ABOUT STEPHEN A. DOUGLAS: May 18, 1843. HC 5:393-4,398, Chron JS, PJS. Joseph Smith prophesies to Stephen A. Douglas that he will “aspire” to the presidency of the U.S., and that if he ever turns against the Mormons, he will “feel the weight of the hand of Almighty God upon [him]”
FULFILLMENT: Douglas did aspire to the presidency, but did not get it. Mormons claim that it was because he did turn against them. However, this prophecy, like the previous one, appears to be a forgery by the editors of HC. It supposedly is recorded in Wm. Clayton’s diary. The manuscript of that diary, however, has no prophecy about Douglas. See MPM 86-88.
MORMONS WILL ESCAPE THEIR ENEMIES: Feb 25, 1844. HC 6:225, Chron JS. Joseph Smith prophesies that within five years the Mormons would be out of the power of their old enemies.
FULFILLMENT: By 1849 the Mormons had set up their theocracy in Utah and, for a time at least, were no longer plagued by their enemies. (By 1857, however, the U.S. was sending an army to Utah to put down the “Mormon Rebellion.”)
JACKSON COUNTY WILL BE DEVASTATED: ca. 1839. Unrecorded prophecy, reported in Morris, PJS p 180. Joseph Smith advised General Doniphan not to own property in Jackson County, Missouri, because “God’s wrath hangs over Jackson county. God’s people have been ruthlessly driven from it, and you will live to see the day when it will be visited by fire and sword. The Lord of Hosts will sweep it with the besom of destruction. The fields and farms and houses will be destroyed, and only the chimneys will be left to mark the desolation.”
FULFILLMENT: In 1863 Union troops were ordered to burn all houses and crops in Jackson County because of the anti-Union guerrilla warfare of the residents. It was considered one of the worst atrocities of the war.
PORTER ROCKWELL WILL DIE IN BED: Joseph Smith promised his body guard Porter Rockwell that if he never cut his hair, he would die in bed.
FULFILLMENT: Rockwell complied, and in spite of a violent life, died peacefully. (Harold Schindler, Orrin Porter Rockwell, Salt Lake City 1966, pp 108-109)
A VAIN PROPHET WILL BE THROWN DOWN: This prophecy by Joseph Smith, although it was fulfilled quickly and literally, is rarely cited by Mormons. July 1828. D&C 3:4. “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.”
FULFILLMENT: On May 26, 1844, Joseph Smith made the following statement in a public sermon (Brodie p 374, HC 6:408-412):
“Come on, ye persecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
At this time he was secretly married polygamously to over 40 women, some of them wives of men still living. Many who knew of these secret marriages accused him of changing the doctrine of the church to satisfy his own carnal desires, in violation of the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:23-29, 3:5) and D&C 49:16.
Almost exactly one month after this boast, on June 27, 1844, he was killed by his enemies in a gun battle at Carthage Jail.
CONCLUSION
Summarized above are about sixty prophecies of Joseph Smith which were not fulfilled. Mormons may object that some of them may still be fulfilled, for example, Jesus will yet come, the Far West temple will yet be built, New York will yet be destroyed, Salem will yet belong to the Mormons, etc. Yet many of the prophecies cannot be fulfilled: the dates for their fulfillment were given, and those dates have passed; the people whose deeds were prophesied have died without their performing those deeds.
Morris, PJS, discusses only “fulfilled” prophecies, and only eight of them. In addition to four of those discussed above (he does not mention the prophecy about the downfall of boastful prophets), he is forced to include pronouncements by Joseph Smith that were not prophecies about the future at all, but statements about the past, namely, that mankind began in America, not the Old World; that Jesus was born on April 6; and that the Western Hemisphere is a choice land and will always be free from tyrants (the latter, since it occurs in the Book of Mormon, should not be considered a prophecy of Joseph Smith, since, according to Mormon doctrine, Joseph Smith merely translated of the book, not its author).
Five prophecies fulfilled out of the sixty-five or so found recorded does not even measure up to Hyrum Smith’s standard of a “hit one in ten times,” and is far short of the promise (and prophecy) in D&C 1:37 that “ALL” will be fulfilled. Joseph Smith fails to pass the test of a true prophet, even by his own standards or those of his followers (e.g., Morris).
ABBREVIATIONS
D&C Doctrine and Covenants (an official compilation of revelations, accepted by the Mormons as scripture)
JD Journal of Discourses (a stenographic report of speeches made by Mormon leaders during the days of Brigham Young)
Comp Hist Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
HC History of the Church (both of these histories are published by the LDS church)
PJS Nephi Lowell Morris, Prophecies of Joseph Smith and their Fulfillment, Salt Lake City, 1926
Chron JS J. Christopher Conkling, A Joseph Smith Chronology, Salt Lake City, 1979
Brodie Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, 2nd ed, New York, 1993
Quinn D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy, Salt Lake City, 1994
Tanner MSR Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism - Shadow or Reality?, 5th ed, Salt Lake City, 1987
MPM Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Major Problems of Mormonism, Salt Lake City, 1989
See also Richard D. Baer’s “Why I Left The Mormon Church,” n.d., Orangeville, CA.
Compiled by
Richard Packham
For those who claim that Mormonism is not political and that the Mormons dont ever mention voting or elections etc...
Last week in the Mormon “sacrament” religious meetings, a letter from the first presidency was read about the importance of attending party caucus meetings and participating in the election process, on both the Democrat and Republican sides. (Yeah but we know who the Mormons vote for ...Romney 95%... No bigotry there..)
The “first presidency” are the top 3 honchos in the Mormon religion..a pope and a couple of cardinals...
This week a letter from the first presidency was read saying that no one was to submit names for temple work (AKA dead dunking) unless they are related to the submitter. Specifically, names of celebrities and Holocaust victims are NOT to be submitted. This, purportedly, in accordance with an announcement made by the first presidency in 2005.
My moneys on “They wont quit it”
Not so much the fault of Mormons. It's the brainwashing they have been subjected to. But the higher-ups are wise to the trickery.
On God once being a man like everyone else:
“I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.”
Gee, I wonder if he ever bothered to find out. Seems like a bizarre way to reply to something that would seem to be pretty important, especially coming from a head honcho of some sort. If nothing else it’s pretty embarassing, I would think, that this guy is completely flummoxed, or even more embarassing if he absolutely knows and gave this shinola as the sum of his knowledge about the concept and if anyone in his faith happens to buy into it. If he is being honest I am thinking he is a tremendous dim bulb, if he isn’t he is being a butt-covering luke-warm stiff.
Freegards
I agree whole heartily, I have had friends who were Mormons in the past, wonderful people with a unique family life on the exterior, but with some, you get the sense they are keeping a secret from you or they know something you don’t. It’s not a smugness...It’s like some “aura” hanging about? I once had a friend who was a church elder, but worked with me on subs. They don’t drink, of course, but because we had had a close call that day, meaning one or more of us almost died, we were all hyped up, just him and I & he decided (on his own, no arm twisting.)to have a beer with me to calm our nerves. After one, he was already talking...I did not take advantage of this situation, but have always been interested in what the Mormons REALLY think. So I asked curious questions in a nice way..He said that “God has a wife”..this blew me away..He said “Of course he does! and that “She was the most beautiful woman in heaven”, and that “They made love like everyone else in heaven did” I always thought that “Neither is there marriage, nor was anyone given in marriage in heaven”. He talked about of not only becoming an offspring of god, or “little” gods, I thought that very strange but kept quiet/er and he was saying something about all of us having our own universes and our own planets and some of the same kinds of powers that “god” has, WE will have someday (wt*?). Buy now we were on our third beer and he was plastered. He was talking about the meanings of each of the strange symbols their church sews into little girl’s underwear. I found this really weird & He must have realized he was saying things he shouldn’t be & talking to “non-believers” about. We drifted off into non-conversation & soon after decided to turn in for the night. I helped him back to the ship we were staying on. It never again came up in conversations in the future. Like I said, He was, and always will be my friend.. I looked up The “Book of Mormon” and “Peal of Great Price” (SP?). When I began reading their “scripture”, I found it caught you and flowed like the Bible in many places describing How the Lost tribes of Israel came to be in the new world and the angel Moroni and all of his adventures, the gold plates @ the hill in Cumara. But looking back, it felt more like reading a good Clive Cussler novel. I never took it for divine scripture, but whomever(or whatever?) wrote them did a great job in describing the mechanics and concepts of the religion. Like reading a great novel..writing with such authority and fantastical ideas of how things could have been in the years after Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection.
Well, I've been saying it for a while now that the PR Dept of the Mormon church -- and even its apologists -- trump their general authorities.
On Jan. 11, 2011, I wrote: ...the Mormon top-heavy PR/Marketing department of Lds, Inc, which has become the most authoritative "buck stops here" public face of Mormonism. [The Mormon "prophet" is the most internal authoritative voice; and certainly could wield it publicly...but the Mormon hierarchy is delegating most of the "public" side to its (a) PR dept; and (b) apologists]
Source: Numbers: Why You Can't Count on Them
On that same thread, I wrote:
(5) So...given that in an Internet age, the Mormon leadership has become more besieged than ever in having to answer questions -- questions from the media; questions from critics; and questions from its own members, we see the Lds leadership has established a tri-prong approach to dealing with those questions:
* Answering Questions from the media: Lds Spokespeople trump what Lds "prophets" and "apostles" of old elaborated upon. The PR person has the final word! (Even if the statement is coming from a woman -- like Lds spokeswoman Kim Farah! Note: See chart below)
* Answering Questions from the public: Lds apologists trump what Lds general authorities of old elaborated upon. The apologist has the contemporary word -- and oft' the only word!
* Answering Questions from their own Lds members: According to Salt Lake Tribune columnist Robert Kirby, a Mormon, who was present when a world-wide circular letter was read at the Oct. 24, 2010 service, Kirby said with only partial tongue-in-cheek: "According to the First Presidency’s letter, members with real doctrinal concerns were to seek the counsel of our local leaders — stake president, bishop, Scoutmaster, building custodian, etc." Why?
Well, per Kirby: "The letter...told/counseled rank-and-file Mormons to stop pestering church headquarters for clarification of church doctrine. Apparently some members get so stressed about the finer points of doctrine that they’ll fire off a letter asking for the final word. Church HQ can’t handle the demand... Source for both quotes: Kirby: Wrestling with doctrine no match for me
So, you can see what kind of trouble the Mormon leadership is in if they are delegating doctrinal questions to "scoutmasters" and "church janitors" -- coupled with Paragon Defender's links to unofficial Mormon apologist Web sites!!! And when see female spokespeople being able to trump what generations of Lds general authorities said about the White Horse prophesy, well, all I can say is: We've entered a whole new era of Mormondom!!! [Note: Details of all of this is covered & documented in chart & explanations that follow below]
[NOTE: Documentation for chart is found in linkages below the chart!]
| Movers & Shakers in the Mormon church: | (What do they do?) | Give me Examples |
| What do Lds "prophets" do? | (They supposedly "prophesy") | Joseph Smith & others on 'White Horse prophesy' |
| What do Lds "apostles" do? | (They also @ times "prophesy") | Orson Hyde, Jedediah Grant, Orson Whitney |
| How oft' don't Lds "prophets" prophesy? | (@ "Bible-level" anyway: Most - Never!) | 5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 13th-->16th Lds "prophets" |
| What do Lds PR "spokespeople" do? | (They "officialize" or "re-officialize" spin statements) | Lds spokeswoman Kim Farah & Lds spokesman Dale Bills |
| What does Lds "First Presidency" do re: theology questions? | (They delegate to local bishops & maybe even the local janitors!) | Oct 24 2010 letter from Lds "First Presidency" circulated to be read worldwide |
| Who do FR Lds apologists sometimes look to as ultimate authorities? | (PR spokespeople & Lds apologists) | Freepers Restornu re: Kim Farah; Normandy re: Dale Bills; Paragon Defender re: Lds apologists |
| What do Lds apologists do? | (They apologize for what their previous leaders say -- "apologize" as in the contemporary meaning - not the historical meaning | Dr. Gregory L. Smith going to extreme spin to explain why Lds leaders lied |
*******
So I said that on 1/11/11...then on 2/12/12...I told Jeff Head in this chart:
Apparently Mormon PR spokespeople are the "final arbiters" of Mormon "truth" (who trump even deceased Mormon "prophets" and "apostles"). Elsewise, they wouldn't be the "filter" people have to go through to determine “official” Mormon "truth," now would they?
Source: Do “Official” Mormon Sources Exist? (post #13)
Welcome to MORMONism 101
While we are waiting to start; enjoy the artwork on our walls.
If some of it seems shifty to you, just look at it real closely
and it will stop moving, but another location will then start to crawl on you.
Do NOT think our DOCTRINE is this way!
That's NOTHING!!!
SLC 'mormons' think that Brigham Young WAS!!!!
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
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