Posted on 03/26/2012 1:38:33 PM PDT by NYer
>> “They are blessed and sacred because of the proper use of them.” <<
.
Then they are an abomination because they’re idols.
If you call hold the Body or Blood of Jesus Christ an abomination — I feel sorry for you.
What did I not say in my post to indicate that they are sacred vessels?
Do you consider Holy Water to be an idol too?
How about Palm Btanches — are they idols.
Only if these objects are adored instead of adoring Christ are they idols. And they aren’t, they are just sacred things that have a lot of symbolic meaning.
Do you have a cross in your church? Do you consider it an idol?
You wrote:
“Getting outraged over this is what the Muslims do.”
From a purely logical standpoint your comment is grossly ignorant.
1) According to Islam, Muslims are not to make images of Muhammad. That doesn’t mean a Danish Lutheran can’t make an image of Muhammad. Thus, the Muslims never had a valid reason to be upset in the first place.
2) The Danish Lutheran did not belong to Islam or Muslims. The items in the photos in this thread were owned by and used by Catholics and the Catholic Church. Thus, someone is using OUR sacred items in a profane way. We have every right to be upset with how someone uses property once dedicated to the service of OUR God, OUR Church, and OUR people when that usage is profane to say the least. Also, the items in question are probably stolen to begin with or have been appropriated in a way the original owner - the Church or a cleric - NEVER INTENDED.
3) And in regard to this comment: “Are you suggesting that only Christians who believe the chalice is some form of super powerful cup should be allowed to drink from them?” It is only logical that sacred property should be handled only by those to whom it properly belogs. I would never, EVER, think of using a Methodist ministers chalice for something profane even though he might not even believe in the Real Presence and no miracle takes place in it. To use it in a profane way would simply to denigrate the beliefs and practices of the people who own it. Those of us who are civilized and believe in common decency would not use yarmulke or tallits as napkins. I guess you would?
Thanks for posting that. I was going to look it up and post it this evening. It was my first thought when I read the article.
I wonder what would happen if somebody opened a bar making fun of Islamic holy objects.
Maryland “Freak State” PING!
Yes those are all idols if they have so much meaning to them that you can’t understand they are just representations. Unless the Bible specifically says those things are never to fall out of the hands of the church and you should do everything in your power to shut those that do down—then you need to relax a bit. Worship as you see fit and don’t go looking to get upset over others. You should be more concerned with their souls and less with the relics they use.
From a purely logical standpoint you made my point for me.
1) Obviously we don’t think they have a leg to stand on, yet they do it anyway. Kind of like this post...where does it say in the Bible that these specific items are holy and those that use them in the way they are used should be ran out of town? Should we be more concerned with their souls vice what they are doing with our idols?
2) Ah, but who owns them now? The Catholic church should keep control of their idols more closely, less they fall into other’s hands. If these are truly the churches idols they should be able to sue and get them back.
3) Ok so you wouldn’t do this, but these people are. As I said the conversation should be about their souls and praying for them not about idols of the church.
You wrote:
“From a purely logical standpoint you made my point for me.”
Not even remotely. You never actually studied logic did you?
“1) Obviously we don’t think they have a leg to stand on, yet they do it anyway. Kind of like this post...where does it say in the Bible that these specific items are holy and those that use them in the way they are used should be ran out of town?”
Please tell me from where in the Bible we get the phrase “Holy Bible”. Can you do that? Since when must a thing be mentioned in the Bible to be holy?
“Should we be more concerned with their souls vice what they are doing with our idols?”
There are no idols involved. No idols were mentioned, described, or photographed. Why are you essentially inventing something that isn’t there?
“2) Ah, but who owns them now? The Catholic church should keep control of their idols more closely, less they fall into other’s hands.”
What idols? The Catholic Church has none. Never did. Also, if this is stolen property, and it might be, how can you blame the victim for the theft? And again, what idols?
“If these are truly the churches idols they should be able to sue and get them back.”
Again, what idols? No idols are mentioned and the Catholic Church has never had any. why are you essentially making things up out of thin air? If you have to make things up - things not remotely mentioned in the article - doesn’t that automatically suggest you have no argument worth noting?
“3) Ok so you wouldn’t do this, but these people are. As I said the conversation should be about their souls and praying for them not about idols of the church.”
Again, there are no idols involved. How can someone who makes things up even consider to have a conversation about the state of someone else’s soul?
By that logic, Biblical Judaism was chock-full of idols, put there by God's express command. One of their "idols" was so sacred that a man who touched it without authorization was instantly struck dead.
They had a building that was an "idol," too -- part of it was so sacred that only one man could enter it, on only one day a year, and then only twice on that day, and only after taking a bath and putting on special clothes.
Again, by God's express, to-the-letter command.
I wonder sometimes if some of the "Bible Christians" who frequent this site ever study the Bible outside of Romans, Galatians, and Revelation.
I need to be careful as this was started in a news section but has been moved to religion. So I don’t want to violate the rules of this forum.
But clearly the way some are acting on this thread reminds me of how muslims act when we burn a Koran. Yet we act like what’s the big deal...same should apply here. It’s not like they are killing God—they may be doing something sacrilegious to you; however, who cares. If the Catholic church thought it was critical they could excommunicate them—if they are catholic.
Once again this is a big to do about nothing. Once the items are no longer used in service and are sold in the open market then they are no longer meaningful for spiritual purposes (unless they are re-purposed for such things).
Is a cross that gets melted down and remade into something else a violation of your church? What if it gets made into a little buddah—is it now bad? What if a buddah is melted and made into a cross? Or what happens to holy water that evaporates and eventually falls to the earth as rain?
You wrote:
“Once again this is a big to do about nothing.”
False.
“Once the items are no longer used in service and are sold in the open market then they are no longer meaningful for spiritual purposes (unless they are re-purposed for such things).”
Again, false. These items only have one purpose.
“Is a cross that gets melted down and remade into something else a violation of your church?”
Your analogy is false for nothing has been melted down here. Again, you don’t seem to understand logic.
“What if it gets made into a little buddah—is it now bad?”
A chalice is a chalice. A chalice cannot be a Buddha. Nothing is being re-made here.
“What if a buddah is melted and made into a cross?”
Nothing is being melted down here - except your false arguments.
“Or what happens to holy water that evaporates and eventually falls to the earth as rain?”
Nothing is evaporating here - except any chance you have an argument.
Read post 14. In fact, why don’t you read the Old Testament.
wrong...clearly a chalice can be used for other things...as proven by this bar. Same thing with the candy dispenser. Is it tasteless—to many yes.
Will it cause all catholics to go to hell and lose their religion? Nope.
Have you ever bothered to read the book of Daniel? Well go read it and see what God thought of the golden vessels being stolen from the Jewish temple and used to get drunk with.
Right, but I’m more of a new testament Christian. Got anything in that book about this stuff?
Well the church isn’t a building its the people, so I say you open the doors of church for drinking parties on Fri. nights.
A pagan catholic implement of idolatry is not equivalent to a temple vessel ordained by YHWH. Not even close.
Ever wonder why the #2 commandments was dropped and the 10th commandment was split into #9 & #10? At least on the catholic side?
I think that’s why we won’t agree on this. So we’ll need to let it rest. Catholics don’t have an issue with idolatry and protestants do. Might be due to our 2nd commandment being different, so looks like we aren’t going to fix that anytime soon.
They are sold all the time. Look on ebay or call businesses which deal in antique silver. We gave the priest at our church a beautiful antique chalice amd paten that we bought from an antique silver dealer in Atlanta.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.