Posted on 04/05/2012 5:17:05 AM PDT by NYer
.- Scott and Kimberly Hahn have been Catholic for over two decades, but this is the first Holy Week they have ever spent in Rome.
“This experience has been for us overwhelming, and yet the best is yet to come – Holy Thursday, Good Friday and the Easter Vigil. I mean, we’re just standing on tip-toes feeling like kids in a candy store. Like how good can it get?” Scott said to CNA on April 3.
The Hahns are in Rome this week with their three youngest sons, 20-year-old Jeremiah, 17-year-old Joseph and 12-year-old David. This morning they attended Pope Benedict XVI’s general audience in St. Peter’s Square.
“It is always amazing to be here in Rome; to hear all of the languages and see all of the peoples that the Gospel has gone to and realize that this is not an American thing, it’s not even a European thing …God has been at work over the centuries calling all kinds of people to him.”
Kimberly said she is always particularly moved “to hear old Italian men and young German children all singing to the Holy Father with the same sort of love I have for him.”
Since being received into the Church in 1986, Dr. Scott Hahn has become one of the most popular Catholic speakers and teachers worldwide. His wife Kimberly became a Catholic four years later. The Hahns later recounted their conversions in the co-authored international best-seller “Rome Sweet Home.” The couple has been married for 33 years and has six children and, very soon, six grandchildren.
The Hahns first visited Rome 20 years ago and had the chance to meet Pope John Paul II.
But the visit occurred at a hard time for the family as it came only one month after the death of Scott’s father.
“To be able to share from my heart the sorrow that I felt for my natural father but to look into the eyes of my spiritual father,” said Scott in reference to Pope John Paul, “and to hear him say ‘I’m sorry, I will pray for him’” was a bittersweet experience.
The encounter made Scott realize that as a Catholic he now enjoyed “the spiritual fatherhood of God through Christ to Peter and to all of his successors down through the ages which unites us worldwide as this Catholic, as this international, universal family of God.”
This is why, he explained, “Rome sweet home is not just the title of a book but the description of my own life experience.”
Kimberly said that the family enjoyed the chance to pray at the tomb of Blessed John Paul in St. Peter’s Basilica and “to be in St. Peters Square where the Holy Father was shot,” which is “a place I love to touch and be close to him there.”
Scott said that other favorite Roman sites for the family include the catacombs where the martyrs of the early Church were buried and “where you find out about how people paid a price a long time ago.” He suggested that “we too may end up having to pay a price” as we “may end up in a post-Christian pagan environment that is as resistant or hostile as theirs.”
Kimberly also loves Rome’s churches since “you just go a short distance and you find another magnificent church” where “even the little side chapels are more beautiful than most American churches.” She hopes that Americans visiting Rome will “catch a vision as to what a Catholic church should look like physically.”
Any opportunity to visit the Pontifical North American College seminary is also “very special” to Kimberly because “these are young men in training who will come back to the States as priests.”
“That experience of the Universal Church has been so powerful,” Kimberly said, summing up their Rome visit so far. “I really can hardly imagine what the Easter Triduum is going to be like, but I’m also really looking forward to that.”
Yes, yes I did read it. But I still wanted to make absolutely CERTAIN that I had read it correctly. Just what is the “Acts of Peter”?
"Hey, Peter, it's Paul. We're getting the band back together...meet me in Rome.... We'll petros this city...".
Yes, it all makes sense now.
Good gravy. The Hahns are nice people - I’ve exchanged handshakes and “Nice to meet you” with both Scott and Kimberly - who have produced a body of scholarly and popular writing and engaged in public speaking that has positively influenced many people.
Even if they turned out to be complete turkeys, that wouldn’t change the validity of their work, which stands or falls on its own merit.
Listen to what I’m saying. If you build someone up too high, you set them up for a fall.
It’s already happened at least twice.
Or ignore me. Then we can all talk about how we never expected it, and move on to the next “rock star.”
I’m reading what you’re typing. Saying, “This person’s books (or live presentations) have been valuable to me,” is not “building them up.” You seem to want to tear people down, with no evidence, for their own good, of course.
St. Paul says, “Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility consider others as better than yourself.” If I think I’m a nice person with a Christian testimony that might be useful to someone else, then why shouldn’t I think at least as well of the Hahns, lacking evidence that this is a false assumption?
I wonder if Mary had a good voice.
We'd have to ask John about that, wouldn't we?
I guess so.
Well, Father Corapi is gone and no one seems to know where he is. He WAS inspirational. I don't know of Father Euteneuer. I guess he was made a celeb.
I always thought Father Corapi was humble enough, but his T.V. personna didn't show us what his real life was like, obviously.
I wish him well.
I have also thought that Scott Hahn was humble enough too. He ALWAYS speaks about his former faith with love and understanding. But I know what you mean.
People set themselves up for disappointment. I don't think this is new or original. People look for heroes; always have; always will. We don't ever get better ourselves unless we have someone to look up to. Jesus SHOULD be the only one, but, I guess we just won't give up on heroes.
The four witnesses are
Clement of Rome (50-60 A.D.),
Ignatius of Antioch (Bishop of Antioch from 70-108 A.D., then taken to Rome for martyrdom),
Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.) and
Irenaeus of Lyons (around 202 A.D.).
The answers to your questions are there. I'm no apologist, truly, and just quote early Church fathers.
There is SO much to learn about the early Church, those first few hundred years after Christ when there WAS no "New Testament" but only scattered scroll collections of gospels and epistles. Most people couldn't read anyway and few, if any, could afford to buy a real book. Only the wealthy could, as I have read.
So those first early Church fathers HAD to have traditions for people to follow. They traveled the known world.
Sidenote: My husband and I visited Turkey in 2008. There were enormous amounts of underground "churches" where the first Christians were forced to worship. They were tanatmount to underground cities. I didn't like seeing them--WAY, WAY too sad and depressing. The early Church was persecuted for several hundred years but...persisted, thanks to the early church fathers who traveled and preached all over the known world, no books, only words and their own Christian (Read that as Catholic) deeds.
Love the CDs Scott Hahn makes. I listen to them on my way to work. They never fail to uplift and inspire me. I am so happy to be Catholic. How I envy them this trip; it’s on my bucket list.
I am trying something new: I set the alarm on my phone for 3pm, the “Hour of Mercy.” Every day at 3 when my alarm (a harp) sounds, I take a moment to pray for the salvation of the souls in Purgatory, the intentions of the Holy Father, and I then reflect on the Passion. I also try to thank God for His tremendous mercy.
I also have a “Lent” playlist on my iTunes and use that to reflect on the Passion and Crucifixion, along with a nice Stations of the Cross app.
That will have to do until I see Rome!
This is the first time I have heard that story. Do you recall where you heard it? What adds to the mystique is a recent news article suggesting the Magi were from China ... LINK.
Since Saint Francis of Assisi is credited with creating the first nativity scene in 1223, a 1st century chinaman would have a poor understanding of the scene .... UNLESS ... that 'wealthy man' was, in fact, one of the magi who actually witnessed it, firsthand. What do you think?
Travel shows on PBS will probably have to do for me! My mother was going to take me for her 75th birthday, in 2013, but Dad needs full-time care and I have a baby again, so we'll just have to commiserate. Anyway, the bathrooms in Europe aren't as good as ours ;-).
My parents have been to Rome several times: they saw Pope John Paul II, soon after his election, when Dad was there with USS D.D. Eisenhower.
I saw JPII in Denver and I would have loved to see him in Rome.
We WILL get there; meanwhile we will enjoy our bathrooms!
Oh c'mon...You posted a biblical untruth and tried to pass it off as truth and you got slapped down by the Holy words of God in the scriptures...And your religion uses that untruth to bolster it's imagined religious history...
I guess you believe in the people who came 1500 years later, the Protestant Reformers? The Church of their fathers, for 1500+ years, wasn't worth reforming, so they ditched it all for what THEY thought was right...not what was RIGHT for the PREVIOUS 1500+ YEARS.
They did reform your religion...And yes I believe in those reformers and those who came before them, whom your religion accused of being heretics and murdered when they would not bow down to your popes...
I don't need to know a lick of religious history to accept Jesus as my Savior and I wouldn't touch your man made tradition that you have proven makes a liar out of the words of God...
But to answer your question, 'is the book enough'???
Absolutely...
Your religion says NO...
The Holy words of our Holy God say:
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
The question is: why would anyone who is seeking Jesus look to a religion that contradicts the Holy Scriptures and then reject the Scriptures???
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
By then there were countless thousands of brethern...And it was required that the epistles were read to all of them...Had to been quite a few copies of the epistles...Regardless of what your religion claims/hopes...
I don't buy your church history or its fathers when they go against the clear words of scripture...
2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Guaging some of the unbiblical traditions that your religion has come up with, I'm convinced Paul here is speaking of the early beginnings of your religion...
Since I'm not a biblical scholar, you can go to Catholic answers.com and get it all, chapter and verse.
The first 300 years of Christianity was Catholicism. That is just history.
There was no New Testament collated yet as the Catholic Church bishops didn't start that process until a council was called (by the Bishop of Rome, a.k.a., the pope), until 380 A.D. The final 27 documents of the "New Testament" rolled out in 420 A.D. There were, apparently, many documents around to verify, many false. Simon Magnus, the "other Simon," was an evil force (false prophet predicted in John). This is all history, cool, just plain history. One can just read about it EVEN on Google; it's not mystical or fabricated, just early Church history.
St. Ignatius (Bishop of Antioch from 70-108 A.D.) was on his way to martyrdom in Rome and wrote letters to the infant churches of Christiandom. His letter to the people of Symrna ended with: "Where there is Jesus there is also the Catholic Church." It's not in the Bible, it's simply history.
The first bishop of Jerusalem was Peter. He was then the first bishop of Antioch, then the first bishop of Rome. The second bishop of Rome was Linus, the third was Clement.
All the bishops of Rome, popes, are historical. It is an unbroken line and all the popes are listed (yes, engraved in granite) at the entrance to St. Peter's. The current pope is number 265 in the unbroken line from Jesus' first choice of the shepherd to follow him. Historical, cool, not in Scripture. There IS more to Christianity besides ONE book.
Apostolic Tradition was started by Jesus, as He appointed His Twelve. These 12 men weren't to be the only and last if Jesus' Church was to go on through all time. He left His Church in the care of His chosen Twelve. That is Scriptural and historical.
My "religion," as you call it, DID "come up" with unbiblical traditions because Jesus' Church had to continue. Popes, bishops, priests, elders, liturgies, etc., had to be established. Jesus gave Peter the authority to "bind and loose" on earth and in heaven, as He gave them authority to forgive/retain sins.
Also, if there weren't any of those Apostolic tradtions, unbibilical started by the authorized Apostles, your Protestant Reformer ancestors would have had nothing to protest.
1500 years of history washed away by ONE angry Catholic priest, Luther. He undid the work of His Savior with his mighty pen. Is sure worked, didn't it? Luther's wonderful work scattered Christianity so now there are 20,000-30,000 different "protesting" versions of dissident Catholicism.
Jesus wanted ONE unified Church and He had it for 1500 years until angry Luther and his mighty pen. I'm sure you are proud of him and his wonderful work of scattering.
There is STILL one Catholic Church of 1 billion Catholics--and now, thanks to Luther 1 billion Protestants muddling around the world in their 20,000-30,000 DIFFERENT versions of Jesus' one original Catholic Church.
New and different versions emerge every year as Protestants are allowed to interprest the Bible HOWEVER they want, any chapter and verse: NO unity, no authority, no one to shepherd them. They are sheep without a shepherd. THAT is biblical. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, left Peter and His Apostles to carry on and Luther ditched the entire organization. How proud you must be of YOUR religous ancestor...NOT St. Peter, but Martin Luther.
Luther ISN'T biblical either but you follow HIS lead, his traditions and his authority. You chose Luther over Peter.
I'll stick with Jesus' appointed "rock" and Jesus' unbroken line of shepherds, biblical, New Testament. You stick with unbiblical Luther and his tradition of 20-30,000 DIFFERENT versions of Jesus' original Church.
Jesus will sort it all out anyway and I wish YOU and all Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic, the PEACE and JOY of Easter.
His is risen. Allelujah!
http://www.christianityinchina.org/Common/Admin/showNews_auto.jsp?Nid=304&Charset=big5
Tombstone Carvings from AD 86: Did Christianity Reach China In the First Century? [02-20-03]
Wei-Fan Wang, Retired Professor, Nanjing Theological Seminary
China News Update, January 2003
By Wang Wei-fan, Retired Professor, Nanjing Theological Seminary
In 2001, I wrote an article entitled “Christian Spirit in Ancient China.”(1) which suggested the possibility that “the Gospel had reached China during the Eastern Han Dynasty.” (25-220 AD) (2) One of the basis of this assumption was the statement by Li Wenbin: “During the Eastern Han period, two Syrian missionaries came to China. Their purpose was to spread Christianity.”(3) Another basis was the discovery of an iron cross in Luling, Jiangxi Province in the Ming Dynasty during the reign of Emperor Hongwu (1368-1398 AD). Carved on the cross was a couplet:
Four seas rejoice o’er peace; iron rod splendors a cross;
Ten thousand folks for grace yearn; a thousand autumns incensed by golden urn.
The date of this relic was “the ninth year of Chi-wu, Eastern Wu.”(4) Chi-wu was the name for the fourth period of reign of Sun Quan who became King of Eastern Wu in the year 222 AD. “The ninth year of Chi-wu” was actually the 25th year of Sun’s reign, 222-246 AD). The fact that such a large iron cross existed, and that a Christian intellectual could compose a couplet with this degree of sophistication lead to the speculation that the Christianity must have been in China before Sun Quan’s reign. In other words, the Gospel could very well have been brought to China in the Eastern Han dynasty.
I. The Gospel Carved on Stone During the Han Dynasty, especially Eastern Han, carved stone objects were often used for burial. Furthermore, elaborate tombs were constructed with limestone, with carvings on the doors and walls of underground chambers. In June, 2002 a colleague from Xuzhou (in northern Jiangsu Province) informed me that the museum in this city contained many excavated carvings with Middle East cultural characteristics. So, with the hope of finding evidence of Christianity in Eastern Han China, I visited the Art Museum in Xuzhou. Later the church in Xuzhou (formerly a Presbyterian church within the Synod of Jiang-Huai) gave me a newly published book Xuzhou Han Stone Carvings compiled by the director of the museum, Mr. Wu Liuhua (published in Beijing, November 2001). Most of the picture illustrations on these pages are taken from this volume.
The first startling piece of art I came upon was a carving with fish and phoenix as symbols. (A)(5) The phoenix, also known as “eternal” or “everlasting” bird, was a symbol for resurrection in Egyptian myths. The Fish (ICQUS), meaning “Jesus Christ God’s Son our Savior,” was used by early Christians on their doors and tombs. The combination of these two symbols on the Han tomb may indicate the hope of Christians for salvation and resurrection by faith in Christ. To the left of this carving was the date: “The seventh day of the third month in the year of Yuan-he” – 86 AD. Yuan-he was the name of the reign of Emperor Zhangdi in Eastern Han. So the construction of this tomb was 550 years before the Nestorian monk Alopen reached Changan (today’s Xi’an) in 635 AD, and about 50 years after the mass persecution in Jerusalem, resulting in Christians being dispersed to other parts of the world.(6)
II. The Creation and the Fall One of the carvings seems to describe the creation story. (B)(7) On the top are “two great lights” of sun and moon, a big fish and a bird. On the right are wild beasts. The left are domestic animals such as donkey, horse and ox. The images are typical of Western Han art – exaggerated, flowing and lively – except for the two beasts with intertwining necks, which are in the style of Middle East art.
Another carving shows the temptation of Eve.(C) On this carving we read from right to left (in Chinese and Jewish order): the devil, serpent, Eve, the tree of discerning good and evil, the cherubim, then the sword (symbols of evil and deceit on the right; symbols of goodness and kindness on the left.) The seductive and crafty serpent is waving beautiful flowers to Eve while biting her left hand. At the same time Eve’s right hand is already picking the fruit from the tree. To the left of the tree we see the cherubim and the sword, flaming and turning, guarding the tree of life.
Two other carvings have figures like Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden. The first one (D) shows a man and a woman wearing clothes made with animal skins. The woman’s skirt seems to have a design of snakes, while the man is holding a tool resembling a hoe.
The second carving (E) depicts a man and a woman moving away from a locked gate. The woman looks sad and the man’s face has two sides, one side looking forward and the other side turning back as if reluctant to leave. Both of these carvings were excavated from the tomb of “Jiu nu dun” (which can mean “the mound of the ninth daughter”).
In this same tomb is also a stone pillar with a ferocious dragon (F), unlike the traditional Chinese dragon which stands for honor, majesty, dignity and transcendence. To have such a frightening dragon placed in the center of the tomb could mean that Chinese Christians in those days had identified the dragon with the Old Testament serpent as a monster, representing evil and darkness.(8)
III. The Passover Lamb Over the Gate A number of the limestone entrances to the Eastern Han burial chambers have carvings of fish and lamb. (G) which, for Christians, would mean “Christ Jesus the Savior” and the lamb of Passover saving the Israelites from death.
Some of the beams from the tombs have just the lamb (H) while others have both the lamb and the eternal bird (phoenix), combining salvation and resurrection. The fish and the lamb were seldom seen in traditional Chinese art. The phoenix in China was a symbol for prosperity and good luck, unrelated to resurrection.
An Eastern Han tomb discovered at Wang Shan had semicircular upper beams with two levels.(I)(6) The upper level describes “heaven” with the tree of life and the eternal bird; the lower level is “earth,” with two dragons bound by three chains. The tree of life and the eternal bird represent resurrection and everlasting life, while the dragons represents the ruler of demons.(10)
On another stone, a highly artistic piece, the dragon is bound by three chains.(27) There are other dragons, one imprisoned (J)(12) and guarded by swords from four directions, and another dragon with a broken leg (K)(13). Though different in style, these dragons have all departed from the traditional Chinese portrayal of this sacred creature.
IV. The Nativity It is common for carvings on Han tombs to illustrate activities of everyday life, and some seem to tell the story of the life of Christ. One of them may be the Christmas story, with wise men worshiping the Christ child (L). While the birds (and angels) are rejoicing above the shed, the human figures show reference and admiration. A wise man is offering a gift. On the ground is a vase, possibly containing myrrh? At the lower left of the shed is a little sheep.
A larger likely “manger scene” clearly shows the baby held on the lap of his mother.(M) This, too, has celestial beings above the roof, and wise men coming to pay homage.
A huge dragon seems to be over whelming to the small human figures below(N), as if Joseph, Mary and baby Jesus were threatened by the powerful and murderous Herod on their flight to Egypt. Kneeling behind the carriage are two women, bidding their sad farewell.
V. The Yi Vessel In the Xuzhou museum I saw a bronze container, also dating back to the Eastern Han period. (O)(14) The bottom is carved with two fishes and five loaves, plus the character “Yi.” In the Book of Records [one of the Five Classics which are considered part of the sacred scriptures of China], it was said that “the offering is to God; while the yi is used for offering by the emperor.” This container with the five loaves and two fishes could be a vessel for offering to God. The word Yi also means “sharing.” In the Book of Poetry [also part of the Chinese sacred scriptures] it says “To share with you.” It is not difficult to imagine that this was a vessel used by the early church in Eastern Han for sharing food and to celebrate the “love feast,” Holy Communion.
These speculations are the results of my initial research, made possible with the help of the Xuzhou Han Carving Arts Museum, and the assistance of the church in Xuzhou. It is important to note that Xuzhou is not the only place where Han stone carvings have been found. Several locations in Henan and Shandong provinces have sizable collections of these excavated stone carvings. As if these very stones are “crying out” for our attention, they deserve our serious study and research. The task will take years, requiring rigor and discipline. Eastern Han was the first period in history when many religions were introduced to China. In the Western Han period, Zhang Qian had explored the west and went on the Silk Road to “Da Qin which is today’s Syria. It is not difficult to trace the footsteps of the Gospel by way of the Silk Road to Eastern Han, from Jerusalem, Samaria and Syria, through what is today Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Xinjiang, Dunhuang to reach Changan (Xi’an). The ancient Christians had braved the long and arduous journey to reach our land. Therefore with gratitude we say: How beautiful are the feet of those who brought good tidings.
End Notes
(1) See Jinling Theological Review., vol. 2, 2001, pp. 25-27
(2) Ibid. Eastern Han is a dynasty established by Liu Xiu, with Luoyang as its capitol. From 25-220 AD, the dynasty lasted only 196 years.
(3) A History of China by Li Wenbin
(4) From Wang Zhi-xin, A History of Chinese Christianity which quoted from A Record of Careful Thoughts by Li Jiugong of Ming Dynasty, and from “Poem of the Iron Cross” in Liu Zigao’s Collection of Poetry.”
(5) No. 12 of Xuzhou Han Stone Carvings, Xuzhou Museum of Han Carvings
(6) In Acts 8:1-4, the persecution took place about 35 AD, just before the conversion of Paul.
(7) Originally published in Wen Hui Bao (Daily), August 9, 2002
(8) Deuteronomy 32:33; Psalm 148:7; Isaiah 27:1
(9) No. 135 of Xuzhou Han Stone Carvings, measuring 106 cm x 200cm x 35cm
(10) Matthew 12:22-30
(11) No. 99 of Xuzhou Han Stone Carvings, 127cm x 271cm x 20cm, from the eastern wall of the Huangshan tomb in Tongshan County, now in the Xuzhou museum
(12) No. 134 of Xuzhou Han Stone Carvings, from Jia-wang District, Qing Shan Quan, 100cm x 212cm x 20cm, now at Xuzhou Museum
(13) Photographed by the author a the Xuzhou museum
(14) No. 81 of Xuzhou Han Stone Carvings, from the northern wall of the stone chamber of a tomb at Mao Village, Tong Shan County, Xuzhou
For accounts related to this story click on
Century OnLine China Art News http://www.chinaartnetworks.com/news/show_news.php?id=1369
Christianity Today, October 7, 2002
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/011/19.14.html
These documents and web sites are not necessarily consistent with the views of the Christianity In China web site management, Christian Leadership Exchange, but they are part of the total picture of issues discussed in the West.
Copyright © 2002 Christianity In China. All rights reserved. Design and Technical Support: Christian Media Association
I think that given the Apostolic fervor of Jesus' Chosen Twelve, I would say that Christianity in 1st century China is a definite possibility.
I don't THINK that said Chinese wealthy man would have been one of the Magi...a wealthy man or woman in China would probably NOT have left his nice comfortable wealthy home. But, then, what do I know? :o)
That's Catholic's version of Catholic history...That's not church history...
Polycarp was among the first of the church fathers and he never mentioned a word about your religion...
The final 27 documents of the "New Testament" rolled out in 420 A.D.
400 years after Jesus died and rose again your religion determines which gospels and epistles the disciples wrote and preached??? 400 years???
I don't think God is that incompetent that he has to wait for your religion for 400 years to determine what He inspired to be written and preached...
Simon Magnus, the "other Simon," was an evil force (false prophet predicted in John).
Yes, Simon 'Peter' Magnus was a religious leader at the same time the apostle Peter is alleged to have been there, without any biblical evidence, of course...
St. Ignatius (Bishop of Antioch from 70-108 A.D.) was on his way to martyrdom in Rome and wrote letters to the infant churches of Christiandom. His letter to the people of Symrna ended with: "Where there is Jesus there is also the Catholic Church." It's not in the Bible, it's simply history.
And because it's Catholic history it's true??? Anyone who will do even a little research will find out that much of the work attributed to Ignatius has been found to be forged...Not real...Therefore, anything attributed to Ignatius must be questioned...Even his actual existence...
The first bishop of Jerusalem was Peter.
James was clearly the first bishop of Jerusalem, even according to your own religion...
He was then the first bishop of Antioch, then the first bishop of Rome.
Outrageous...Paul was clearly the fist bishop of Antioch...
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
You guys constantly pervert the scriptures and whine because we reject your Catholic history because it's perverts the scripture...
There IS more to Christianity besides ONE book.
Nope...You're wrong...There is just the one book...There are a lot of commentaries written about the book, good and bad; Catholic commentaries as well...
Luther ISN'T biblical either but you follow HIS lead, his traditions and his authority.
Let's see...Your religion says Peter was the first bishop of Rome...Your religion says Paul never saw Jesus...But the bible says your religion is lying...So I'll stick with your religion anyway....HaHaHa...
Nope, not me...I'll stick with the Holy words of God...
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