Posted on 04/29/2012 3:06:06 PM PDT by NYer
I never said that grace is not a free gift from God. It is. But once that gift is received you must use it, not sit on it.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
Seems as your understanding of grace is a bit skewed...
Grace is kindness...Grace is favor... Grace has been given to all men...Not just Christians...
The Gift is not grace...The Gift is salvation evidenced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...You can not be indwelt with the Holy Spirit unless you are a Christian, born again from above and belong to Jesus Christ, ergo, salvation...
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The 'Gift' is the Holy Ghost...
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
The Gift is not grace...The Gift is BY grace, thru faith...
And we will not be able to provide works good enough for God but the Spirit within us will provide the works for us...
Not so difficult to get if you just read and believe God...
If God desires a man to have grace, that man will have grace.
RCs presume they are stronger than the will of God and the actions of the Holy Spirit.
Utter hubris.
Scripture says grace is free and unmerited. Read Ephesians 1 and 2 and learn who is stronger — God or man.
"IF"? Again you are at odds with 99% of those who call themselves Christian. God gifts Grace to everyone sufficient for their Salvation. Irresistible grace is a fabrication of a French lawyer, not the Holy Spirit. It is a perversion of the concept of efficacious grace. I would encourage you to expand your knowledge beyond the musings of Calvin. Read your whole bible. Then, if you are still interested in the concept of Irresistible Grace read Congregatio de Auxiliis.
Peace be with you.
The RCC over-estimates man and under-estimates God. It is a foolish, anti-scriptural logic.
If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved. He's God. You're not.
Yet you continue to argue that all one needs to do to be saved is to adopt tenets of Calvinism and then to declare themselves saved.
God does want us to be saved. A loving God does not damn anyone to hell, that is the consequence of rejection of Grace by the sinner. Being made in God's image, God gave us free will and the knowledge of the difference between good and evil so that we could freely choose to love him.
Excellently stated point! The gift is NOT grace, itself, but eternal life that God gifts to us by grace through faith. Where so many people go wrong is in thinking that grace is the gift and that, as said in this thread, that we must "use it" or "cooperate" with it in order to somehow merit eternal life. But we cannot ever merit or deserve or earn what God gives to us by His grace. It is on HIS terms, and HE says he gives to us eternal life THROUGH faith in Christ.
I often wonder if the reason so many people struggle with living for the Lord is because they are trying to do it with their own strength out of fear that failing to do "right" will cause them to lose the gift? It is only when we surrender to the indwelling Holy Spirit - recognizing that this is even how we can do the good works God has prepared for us - that we CAN live in holiness the life that brings glory to God. I life that is lived out of gratitude for His unspeakable gift! A gift that He promises He will NEVER rescind or let us lose. He will "in no wise cast us out" (John 6:37).
This is an unnecessary exercise in semantics brought about not by our theologies, but our dependence on English. Grace is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures necessary for their eternal salvation. It is received as articulated in the Eucharistic Doxology' "Per ipsum, et cum ipso, et in ipso," (through Him, and with Him, and in Him).
Peace be to you.
Why "unnecessary"? There sure seems to be a huge gap between what is understood as the "gift" from God and the nature of God in how He deals with humanity. Everything ALL people have from God is because of His grace. It is because of His grace and mercy that we are not destroyed at our first sinful act. It is of Jehovah's lovingkindnesses that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. (Lamentations 3:22)
In Titus 2:11-14, Paul says:
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
But, we know that not all men will respond to this grace and receive the gift of eternal life. Unlike the Roman Catholic doctrine of "infused" grace, Scripture very clearly states that God GIVES to us eternal life, and this life is in His son, Jesus Christ. The righteousness necessary for eternal life in the all holy realm of God is not something humanly possible to achieve and MUST be "imputed" to us through faith. Faith is what is needed to receive the gift of everlasting life.
So, no, I do not agree that it is merely "semantics" brought about by our "dependence" on the English language. God is fully able to communicate the truth of the gospel to ANY person who seeks to know the truth regardless of language.
Amen.....
I'm getting pretty tired of you repeatedly misstating my position. It's a waste of my time.
There is only one criteria for salvation -- not baptism not communion, not a priestly invocation or the hundres of other pseudo requirements Rome concocked to keep men chained to its pretty dresses.
"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36
Belief in Christ as Lord, King, God and Savior is the only "requirement" for salvation. And the ability to comprehend that is God-given as the free gift of the Holy Spirit who renews a man's mind to know the the things of God.
Read the Bible. Leave the man-man hoops behind. Maybe you'll understand, God willing.
a loving God does not damn anyone to hell
lol. Once again we see the RCC is not only illogical, but Scripturally ignorant.
Is Judas in hell?
You believe in hell now?
Not as tired as I am of you misstating the positions of the Church or the meaning of Scripture, my dear sister. But your soul is worth saving so I will keep trying.
"Is Judas in hell?"
That is known only to God, but if he is it is the result of choices he freely made. (You do know that Dante's Divine Comedy is fiction don't you?)
Pax et Bonum.
Yes, but not the hell preached by the Reformation. I believe the chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created.
Luke 16:19-31 19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
and
Revelation 20:11-15 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
If you don't believe that an eternal separation from God is far worse than any physical pain or deprivation then I suspect that you don't fully understand God and Heaven.
Peace be with you.
But can you deny that God went out of His way to warn us that hell is much, much more than just separation from Him for eternity? Guys like Christopher Hitchens - though he KNOWS the truth now - imagined that nothing could be worse than having to spend his time worshiping and singing praises to God for all eternity. Scripture most certainly says that there is torment and suffering for eternity and the torments ARE physical and not just spiritual. Though we can and do dread being eternally separated from God's presence, the hatred of God by atheists and the devil with his angels would make them prefer to never have to see Almighty God and such a hell would not be a deterrent at all. No, the example of the rich man and Lazarus shows us that there IS physical torment and suffering in hades and, ultimately, hell. It IS called the "second resurrection", after all.
Yup! Jesus spoke often about death and the eternal separation from God, but He was speaking to a Jewish audience who did not have a complete understanding and appreciation of heaven, hell and an afterlife. Much or Judaism remains this way today. He was trying to relate the consequences of sin and salvation in terms the average first century Jew could understand.
As for me, I cannot imagine anything being worse than an eternal separation from God, certainly not "far worse" and not even a little worse. I see those who fear and are motivated by the avoidance of eternal pain and suffering of valuing their personal well being too highly and failing to fulfill the basic definition of love; which is to will the good for another, completely and unselfishly for the other. Unless your love for Jesus is complete and unselfish, as His was for us, you are not truly loving Him as He commanded. Anything other than that is a disguised form of egotism.
Peace be with you.
NL- That is known only to God, but if he is it is the result of choices he freely made.
Of course it is a result of a choice he freely made. And that's the point. Left to our own devices we will always make the wrong choice. And one slip up is enough to be cast from the presence of God (as Adam found out).
The real question is whether we will make the right choices all the time. I believe Catholic doctrine would even say that Mary was incapable of doing that without God's grace.
Harley, we agree on this, I think. Our efforts to accept Grace and endeavor to not slip up is our cooperation with that Grace. And yes, Mary is full of Grace.
So, in your view, Jesus was bluffing"? All that talk about a "lake of fire and brimstone", "everlasting fire", "torment day and night forever and ever" "everlasting punishment", "everlasting destruction", where the "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", "a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth", "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death", "being in torments", "place of torments", were just scare tactics to really compel people into being Christians?
You say Jesus "was speaking to a Jewish audience who did not have a complete understanding and appreciation of heaven, hell and an afterlife". That's an astounding admission when you have mocked and criticized people like Smvoice and others, who spoke about the audience of Jesus in the gospels being the Jews and the effect on the context of what he said. I'm pinging a few so they can note your change of mind about this.
Of course the Old Testament Jews did not have as complete an understanding that we do post New Testament writings about heaven and hell, but you would be wrong to claim they did not have a truthful understanding of what God had revealed to them through the Old Testament writings. There are ample verses that speak of both the presence with God and the place of torment. See Isaiah 66:24,
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.
See Isaiah 14:11,15 [referring to Lucifer],
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
and Daniel 12:2,
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.
There are many references to "sheol" in the Old Testament and it referred to the place of the dead. Jesus spoke of such a place and said it was two separate compartments. One was a place of torment and the other called "Paradise" or "Abraham's Bosom". Paradise was cleared out at the resurrection, when Jesus "led captivity captive" into heaven. The final hell does not yet exist but will be created at the final judgment and Satan with his angels along with the anti-christ and false prophet along with the all lost will be cast into it for eternity. But you should already know all that.
Are you saying you disagree with your church's teachings about hell? Your Catechism says:
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
You have stated many times that your purpose for participating on these threads is to make sure Catholic doctrine is correctly stated. That's why I wonder why you seem to now be contradicting what your church states. I certainly agree that hell's chief punishment is eternity separated from God, and regardless what atheists boast about wanting to not be in God's presence, I fully believe that, once they come to know the truth, they WILL be tormented by forever and ever, never being in the presence of Almighty God nor ever changing their eternity. But, I do not agree that Scripture bluffs and blusters about hell being a REAL place of torment. To skip over that and pretend that it is not true, is to leave out an important factor in God's plan of salvation.
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