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To: boatbums
"But can you deny that God went out of His way to warn us that hell is much, much more than just separation from Him for eternity?"

Yup! Jesus spoke often about death and the eternal separation from God, but He was speaking to a Jewish audience who did not have a complete understanding and appreciation of heaven, hell and an afterlife. Much or Judaism remains this way today. He was trying to relate the consequences of sin and salvation in terms the average first century Jew could understand.

As for me, I cannot imagine anything being worse than an eternal separation from God, certainly not "far worse" and not even a little worse. I see those who fear and are motivated by the avoidance of eternal pain and suffering of valuing their personal well being too highly and failing to fulfill the basic definition of love; which is to will the good for another, completely and unselfishly for the other. Unless your love for Jesus is complete and unselfish, as His was for us, you are not truly loving Him as He commanded. Anything other than that is a disguised form of egotism.

Peace be with you.

237 posted on 05/14/2012 4:25:31 PM PDT by Natural Law (Mary was the face that God chose for Himself.)
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To: Natural Law; smvoice; CynicalBear; metmom
Yup! Jesus spoke often about death and the eternal separation from God, but He was speaking to a Jewish audience who did not have a complete understanding and appreciation of heaven, hell and an afterlife. Much or Judaism remains this way today. He was trying to relate the consequences of sin and salvation in terms the average first century Jew could understand.

So, in your view, Jesus was bluffing"? All that talk about a "lake of fire and brimstone", "everlasting fire", "torment day and night forever and ever" "everlasting punishment", "everlasting destruction", where the "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", "a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth", "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death", "being in torments", "place of torments", were just scare tactics to really compel people into being Christians?

You say Jesus "was speaking to a Jewish audience who did not have a complete understanding and appreciation of heaven, hell and an afterlife". That's an astounding admission when you have mocked and criticized people like Smvoice and others, who spoke about the audience of Jesus in the gospels being the Jews and the effect on the context of what he said. I'm pinging a few so they can note your change of mind about this.

Of course the Old Testament Jews did not have as complete an understanding that we do post New Testament writings about heaven and hell, but you would be wrong to claim they did not have a truthful understanding of what God had revealed to them through the Old Testament writings. There are ample verses that speak of both the presence with God and the place of torment. See Isaiah 66:24,

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

See Isaiah 14:11,15 [referring to Lucifer],

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

and Daniel 12:2,

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.

There are many references to "sheol" in the Old Testament and it referred to the place of the dead. Jesus spoke of such a place and said it was two separate compartments. One was a place of torment and the other called "Paradise" or "Abraham's Bosom". Paradise was cleared out at the resurrection, when Jesus "led captivity captive" into heaven. The final hell does not yet exist but will be created at the final judgment and Satan with his angels along with the anti-christ and false prophet along with the all lost will be cast into it for eternity. But you should already know all that.

Are you saying you disagree with your church's teachings about hell? Your Catechism says:

    1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

    1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

You have stated many times that your purpose for participating on these threads is to make sure Catholic doctrine is correctly stated. That's why I wonder why you seem to now be contradicting what your church states. I certainly agree that hell's chief punishment is eternity separated from God, and regardless what atheists boast about wanting to not be in God's presence, I fully believe that, once they come to know the truth, they WILL be tormented by forever and ever, never being in the presence of Almighty God nor ever changing their eternity. But, I do not agree that Scripture bluffs and blusters about hell being a REAL place of torment. To skip over that and pretend that it is not true, is to leave out an important factor in God's plan of salvation.

240 posted on 05/14/2012 8:19:58 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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