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To: Natural Law
How can you complain about being dismissed as "hateful, anti-Catholic, dismissive, disdainful, rude, insulting, and completely fallacious" and then in the same post make a statement like that? If you expect Catholics to cheerfully accept the kind of ridicule and abuse that is poured out on them on a daily basis you don't understand human psychology any better than you understand Catholic theology.

It wasn't addressed to any Catholic, was it? It was my own PERSONAL feelings and I hardly think you are the one to be castigating another for being honest! I read the comments from those in your group and no more than a smidgen have any compunction at all with being condemning, rude and hurtful and insulting. I'm sorry if you were offended by my honest comment but it was not directed at you personally and it reiterated what I had already said in an earlier post where Paul clearly states that any other gospel that is not what he had preached is accursed by God. I reject the Gospel the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

The Church does not teach that Salvation cannot be achieved by non-Catholics, but only through those things provided by the Church.

The Roman Catholic Church may not now teach that salvation cannot be achieved by non-Catholics, but they certainly DID at one time state that and there were more than a few "ex-cathedra" bulls and statements WITH anathemas along with them by more than a few "infallible" Popes. How many "heretics" were sent to their ruin and/or death because they refused to obey those edicts? Even now, the wording of the latest edict (Vatican II - Lumen Gentium) hedges around the same sense when it says:

    This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

    14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

    15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

    16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention. (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)

You say, "The Church does not, cannot and never has claimed the ability to condemn anyone to hell.", yet it is plainly stated in past and present doctrines that it is only through the Catholic Church that anyone CAN be saved. Rather than preach what Scripture does, that we are saved by grace through faith in the work of Jesus Christ for us and by receiving Him as Savior we are adopted into the family of God which IS the church (small 'c'), the Catholic Church insists that the physical organization headquartered in Rome is the "Church" (capital 'C') and no one can be saved outside of "her". It is only through "her" sacraments that one can be in union with God in a "state" of grace.

Though the documents of Lumen Gentium state the desire for "unity" of the Body of Christ, they really intend for ALL professing Christians to be under the Pope of Rome and participating in all the same activities and doctrines. The unity of the Body of Christ that Scripture speaks about already IS unified because we are all members of the one spiritual community, one spiritual house of God, indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I do not disagree with everything your church teaches and I have said this before many times. But on the most critical doctrine of all, salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, I will continue to defend. My intent is not to injure but to speak the truth. Sometimes truth hurts.

300 posted on 05/17/2012 8:41:56 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

You’re sure that wasn’t some anti-Catholic site you lifted that quote from?

Oh, wait a minute.....


301 posted on 05/18/2012 6:15:33 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: boatbums
"Though the documents of Lumen Gentium state the desire for "unity" of the Body of Christ, they really intend for ALL professing Christians to be under the Pope of Rome and participating in all the same activities and doctrines."

The Catholic Church believes that Christ founded the Church and placed it under St. Peter and his successors. Protestantism demands that the Church "be reasonable" and capitulate on this key doctrine in the name of ecumenicalism. Those who "protest" the Apostolic succession and Papal authority will remain separated from the Church. They will have to work out their own Salvation in the less complete environment of the Reformation. I wish them well.

Peace and Blessings.

302 posted on 05/18/2012 10:25:26 AM PDT by Natural Law (Mary was the face that God chose for Himself.)
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