Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
There is no need for a continual priesthood because there is no continuing sacrifice.
Hebrews 9:11-14 11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent ( not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Hebrews 9:24-28 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:8-14 8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
It was created by the Pagan Pontiff Constantine.
Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something. - Plato Peace be with you.
That seems to suggest your center. Seek YHvH in His WORD not in Plato. Curious; you quote a Pagan Philosopher.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
You have posted the same thing numerous times now and have received answers multiple times. Just because you don't get the answer you want to get, does not mean it has not been addressed. Jesus LITERALLY died upon the cross. His flesh was LITERALLY torn and his blood was LITERALLY shed and he did it all to make a propitiatory payment for all sins. By his shed blood, we have been redeemed. Therefore, by his ONE sacrifice he has FOREVER perfected those who have received the gift God offers and are sanctified in HIM.
Now, to try to make the observance of the Lord's Supper a re-offering, a re-enactment, a re-applying of His death for our sins and to insist that the "elements" used in this observance MUST be confected so that they become efficacious all over again for those who participate in the observance, TOTALLY misses the whole point of what Jesus did for us on that horrible cross. It can NEVER be repeated again and does not NEED to be repeated. Rather than accuse others of misunderstanding the literalness of the cross with the symbolism of the remembrance, why not actually look at what is behind it all?
What I hope all who have read these exchanges over the weeks comes to realize is that "we" are not trying to convert everyone over to "our" denomination. That is because it does not matter to which congregation one chooses to go as long as there is a genuine conversion of the heart to the truth that is the Gospel of the grace of God - that we are saved by HIS grace and it is through our faith that we receive HIS gift. If that critical decision is taken care of, then the new creation in Christ can follow the leading of the Lord to where God wants him to fellowship together with others. They will work together to honor the Lord in word and deed and to grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
We could, and have, spend years going back and forth with all number of discordant doctrines and they are worthwhile for a time, but when these arguments take the focus off of the Gospel, then they become the "foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain" that Titus 3:9 talks about. As we see here, nothing is resolved and the disputes turn ugly and useless, bringing out the worst in some people.
What matters above ALL else - and some things we may not be sure about until we meet in heaven - is that if we want to go to heaven when we die we MUST do what God says we should. Time and time again when the Lord Jesus was asked he said it was believing on Him that gives eternal life. The continuing revelation in the New Testament books only confirm that same message. We are saved NOT by the righteous things we do but by God's unmerited mercy and grace and the ONLY thing He requires is a broken and contrite heart - one that sees our utter sinfulness and our total inability to save ourselves and which reaches out to God to take hold of the lifeline He has given - our one and ONLY Savior, Jesus Christ that we accept by faith.
All else is wrapping. It's like giving a child a gift all wrapped up in pretty paper and ribbon and the child plays with the wrappings and never opens the gift. That is what these discussions become sometimes. All about the wrappings and nothing about what is the real, true gift. Well, I will not continue to argue about the color of the ribbon. It is the gift that is the primary thing - the ONLY thing that is worth striving for. I pray every night that hearts are touched for the gospel and that eyes are opened to the amazing grace of Almighty God, who spared not his own son but delivered him up for us all so that we can be saved.
Pray, come to believe in the fullness of Truth, do All that Jesus commands you. The Eucharist is true, Sacramental Confession to a priest is God’s way, His plan for the forgiveness of our mortal sins and accept Mary’s help. You can pray to her, it would make Our Lord very happy. Three
things to accept, they are “grace filled”, all to your benefit.
An excerpt, a translation, this is God’s plan, He is going
to show every person, all of humanity, just remember if you say no now. I put in CAPS two sentences.
Message to Darly Chagas
It is Coming the Hour, Correct Yourselves
Easter Sunday
April 8, 2012
Mary, Full of Grace:
...Pray, pray, pray for the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, for all the Clergy, for the religious men and women, for all mankind. Pray for the atheists and pagans, they think that God will give up from them, but He will not, for God nothing is impossible, He calls all until the last minute and gives opportunities, only will lose it those who do not want the Salvation of their souls, those who love more the sin than God. Pray for the Holy Church founded by Jesus Christ, ONLY WHO WANTS TO BE PART OF THIS CHURCH WILL SURVIVE FOREVER. For He, Jesus Christ and His Church is the Church founded on earth that is represented by the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI so far. Does not advance for the world to want to undo this determination, ALL THE CHURCHES THAT ARE NOT SUBORDINATE TO THE HOLY FATHER THE POPE, WILL FALL. But, does not advance anybody thinking that this will not happen. Who rules the world is only God and He bears witness to what He talks. Will survive the Foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ. He will gather His followers. Help the Holy Father at this time of great change in the world...
My wife has an implanted defibrillator developed in Japan by pagans. Should we allow her to die to preserve your theological purity?
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. - James 1:17
YES SHE IS! And the cup WAS REMOVED.
It was only their manufactured round white piece of cardboard. And the cup was NOT offered.
So don't tell anyone they aren't telling the truth by what you did not experience.
It doesn't matter to me anymore because I repented for the years I spent in the catholic church being brainwashed with their man made teachings even though I was born into it!
Praise God, I now belong to HIM alone now and NO ONE can snatch me from HIS HAND/HIS TRUTH. I'm blessed, saved and Holy Spirit filled.
NONE OF THEM!!
Because it's not about religion. It's about relationship.
If God wanted religion, He could have just stuck with the one the Jews had turned the Law into.
After all,t eh whole Law was given by God. What? Do you think He made a mistake with that one and felt the need to replace it with another system of rules and regulations?
The cup, and with it the Prescious Blood of Christ, has been present at EVERY Mass since the beginnings of the Liturgy in the first century.
May the peace of Christ be with you
OK. Then why do Catholic die if they’ve eaten Jesus?
Didn’t Jesus promise that anyone who ate Him would never die?
How is that for changing the subject? Actually it is not too curious, Catholicism is a worldly organization and they look to man for answers and quotes, thus Plato. No truth there, just pomp and circumstance for appearance sake.
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. - James 1:17
Unlike the catholic church who changes whenever the mood hits. But a counterfeit church can do that, no one looking for Truth goes there and when others find it, they leave.
God's Word ALONE is The FINAL Authority - IT always was and IT will always be - NEVER CHANGING.
I don't know where ANY of the other non-catholic FReepers attend church and am only aware of the denominational affiliation of one for sure, and that's only hearsay from the Catholics.
It DOES NOT MATTER where boatbums, count-your-change, or Cynical bear attend church for worship and fellowship.
It is enough that they put their faith in Jesus alone for salvation, that they know they are saved by grace through faith in Christ, not of works so that they cannot boast.
That is the ONE FAITH.
It's faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, not a denomination.
it’s a good argument, which is no surprise since it’s Biblical truth and all; but it will only work on people smart enough to comprehend “everlasting life”
“There is no need for a continual priesthood because there is no continuing sacrifice.”
Hebrews 9:24-28 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 NOR WAS IT TO OFFER HIMSELF REPEATEDLY, AS THE HIGH PRIEST ENTERS THE HOLY PLACES EVERY YEAR WITH BLOOD NOT HIS OWN,
~ ~ ~
Christ’s one time “BLOODY” Sacrifice. The same sacrifice in
an UNBLOODY manner is offered to the Father in Heaven AND on earth in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
The Mass is prefigured from the Old Testament, The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the “continual sacrifice” spoken of in the Book of Daniel. It is the “clean oblation” the Eucharistic Sacrifice prophesied in Malachi 1:11.
In the New Covenant, Judaism and Protestantism have no “continual sacrifice”, no priesthood, seee...only found in the true faith.
Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.
Pray, come to believe in the fullness of Truth, do All that Jesus commands you. The Eucharist is true, Sacramental Confession to a priest is God’s way, His plan for the forgiveness of our mortal sins and accept Mary’s help. You can pray to her, it would make Our Lord very happy. Three things to accept, they are “grace filled”, all to your benefit.Believing in the "fullness of the Truth" means, conversion to Mary? the Saints, the Church?
We believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, sent to pay the penalty for our sin. Who suffered, died and was raised on the third day?
Whats the point? We already have Jesus. That is the main point of Catholicism, correct?
So only priests can forgive sin? Only priests can transform the bread and wine into Christ? Bummer
“It DOES NOT MATTER where boatbums, count-your-change, or Cynical bear attend church for worship and fellowship.”
~ ~ ~
It does too matter, you won’t make it through the end
times following what ever you wish to believe. Jesus
established a Church, singular.
You need the “grace” offered through His Church. The
“awakening”, the Great Warning isn’t going to reveal Protestantism to be the true faith, the faith of the new
time, of the Millennium. The Remnant is Roman Catholic.
You must return Home, and the Orthodox too. God is going
to help you.
Is there a cogent thought somewhere in your post? It reads like a ransom note inspired by a George Carlin special and a bong hit. Try rewriting and reposting it.
Peace be with you.
“Whats the point? We already have Jesus. That is the main point of Catholicism, correct?
So only priests can forgive sin? Only priests can transform the bread and wine into Christ? Bummer”
~ ~ ~
There are so many graces you reject that you can have. It’s not Jesus and Me. You can have Jesus and His mother help you get to Heaven.
And the same with Confession and the Eucharist. You are
“assured” when you hear the priest’s words of absolution.
If I had a choice between bread and wine or receiving
God Himself into my person, I now what I would choose.
Jesus, the Blessed Trinity wants everyone, all the world to believe!
JESUS shed His Precious Blood on the Cross ONCE for ALL. "For Christ died for sins ONCE FOR ALL, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God".
And satan was defeated so only satan would deceive and speak against what JESUS DID and His Words IT IS FINISHED!
Everyone else has the victory if they believe but Satan is the loser so he says 'no, no - he didn't finish, he has to do it every day at my command'. Only the deceive believe his lies!
Yes, and we share in His one sacrifice which is made present in the Mass.
Peace be with you.
It makes no sense for me to carry on a debate with someone who sees the word "blue," yet reads "yellow," even though you are the most learned of the opposition on this thread.
God Bless
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