Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
“I know you are new here, but this blatant falsehood has been disproved countless times. Perhaps you need to do a bit more “objective” studying before you try to teach everyone. I’m not Lutheran, but Luther did NOT toss out 7 books in the NEW Testament.”
~ ~ ~
The Canon of Scripture contain the Old and the New Testament
books. Luther did too remove 7 books from the Canon. I stated, the 7 came from the Old Testament. You misunderstood. This is fact, there were two Old Testament Canons. Luther was not guided by God, He threw out the wrong one.
“Luther tossed out the Old Testament Canon which Our Lord and the Apostles quoted from the most. There were two OT Canons, Jesus referred to the Alexandrian Canon also known as the Septuagint.”
” Without these “men” you wouldn’t have Holy Scripture. Man is involved, this is God’s way.”
CYC: Is this private interpretation and thus “heresy”?
~ ~ ~
No count-your-change, I am not interpreting Scripture on my own, I am stating a fact.
Then Christians are NOT to examine the Scriptures on their own in imitation of those noble minded Beroeans?
Then why were they termed “noble minded”? For checking to to see if the things they heard from Paul “were really so”?
Were they making a “private interpretation”? or were they cited as an example for Christians?
Of course. Self interpretation, and misinterpretation at that according to your comments, is only when I quote the Bible instead of some tradition.
You said, “Without these “men” you wouldn’t have Holy Scripture. Man is involved, this is God’s way.”
but whether men were involved or not was never in question only that in agreement with the Scriptures we are not to be followers of men. (1 Cor. 1:10-13)
The oral traditions of both old and new covenants were and are important and those traditions Jesus castigated were those that conflicted with the written word, saying, “it is written” or “have you not read?”.
In Matthew chapter 12 Jesus showed the Pharisees knew what the Law said but didn’t truly understand what it meant and then Jesus pointed out how the traditions of men contradicted the written law of God. (Matt. 15:1-11)
Therefore if we are to avoid that error of the Pharisees we would do well to compare any tradition to God’s written word and reject what does match it as Jesus did.
“No count-your-change, I am not interpreting Scripture on my own, I am stating a fact.”
Of course. Self interpretation, and misinterpretation at that according to your comments, is only when I quote the Bible instead of some tradition.
You said, “Without these “men” you wouldn’t have Holy Scripture. Man is involved, this is God’s way.”
but whether men were involved or not was never in question only that in agreement with the Scriptures we are not to be followers of men. (1 Cor. 1:10-13)
~ ~ ~
You’re posting my comments twice, I already replied to to
your objections. You’re repeating the same protest.
You have no authority to interpret Scripture and no matter how many times you repeat it, Scripture doesn’t interpret itself.
What question, it’s your whole disagreement, you reject the “man” who canonized Scripture and the “man” who translated
the original writings and the council of “men” who confirmed
the “man’s” choices for the Canon. You reject the God given
authority of the Church. You wish to be your own authority.
“What of the rest of His words passed down from the Apostles?’”
And what might these be? A human priesthood within the Christian church? The Immaculate Conception of Mary? Her bodily assumption into heaven?
Tradition perhaps but not part of God's Word and therein lies the problem of traditions of men.
“How do you have the “model of Christ?” Who gave it to you?”
I'll take that as a rhetorical question since I've already dealt with that whole question in detail.
“Our Lord mentioning the chair of Moses is proof there is the Oral Word.”
Just what is this seat of Moses?
I understand where your argument is leading, I believe. That an “Oral Word” exists as a body of teachings on a par with the inspired written Scriptures and that furthermore the Catholic Church is the repository of this “Oral Word”.
“Are you raising up the written tradition by saying the oral tradition is “usually” (your cover) wrong per Our Lord?”
I don't need any “cover”, it was Christ who said over and again, “It is written” (no I didn't take a count).
“You wish to be your own authority.”
Please, Do try to be serious.
“In Matthew chapter 12 Jesus showed the Pharisees knew what the Law said but didn’t truly understand what it meant and then Jesus pointed out how the traditions of men contradicted the written law of God. (Matt. 15:1-11)
Therefore if we are to avoid that error of the Pharisees we would do well to compare any tradition to God’s written word and reject what does match it as Jesus did.”
~ ~ ~
The teachings of the Church are Christ’s teachings. You
reject them to follow your own interpretation of Christ’s
teachings while you quote a Catholic book, the Bible.
The “traditions of men” are the false teachings of men
and their false show of piety, not God’s law. God’s law has
been revealed through His oral and written Word.
“The Commandments of Men” spoken of in Matthew 15:9 is referenced by two verses in the footnote on this verse.
Follow the Apostles and their successors in the Church
Jesus founded, the RCC.
Luke 10:16
He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
and
Matt 18:17
And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Yes, I do tend to repeat things for emphasis. Sometimes it takes a lot of water to penetrate stone.
“You wish to be your own authority.”
Please, Do try to be serious.
~ ~ ~
You say you reject Sola Scriptura. Why don’t you reject
Protestantism totally? Come to the faith, there is only one.
Thank you and good night.
You can know, sharing again, God’s revelation is made explicit through the prophetic, that’s why it is so important.
“It’s difficult to discuss these things with the chronically inconsistent because you never really know which side of the argument they are arguing or where their argument is leading. In this case it is preposterous that a proponent of predestination would not recognize that history is nothing more than God’s plan unfolding before them. What is in the past was His Word, and what has not yet happened is His Word yet to come.”...
~ ~ ~
I appreciate your reply, not a word from anyone else though.
When you give proof with Scripture or words from the first Christians and after it’s been asked for specifically, the comeback is rejection or silence.
Everyone thinks the Book of Revelation is fascinating, mysterious. Here, two verses are explained in prophecy, that’s sooo.. interesting, a great help for these times.
Apocalypse 6:16-17
And they say to the mountains and the rocks: Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of their wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?
GOD SPEAKS WILL YOU LISTEN
June, 07 A.M.
The Secrets of Man’s Hearts
...My people lay aside your secret sins. Focus on your Jesus, not on this world. REMOVE the sins from your life now in the hour of mercy by the light of my spirit. ALL OF MANKIND WILL SOON HAVE MY LIGHT SHINE INTO THEIR SOULS. WILL YOU BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND THAT DAY? OR WILL YOU CRY TO THE ROCKS AND THE MOUNTAINS TO COVER YOU AND TO TRY AND HIDE FROM MY PRESENCE? Better to be humble in my sight today than to wait until that hour. Take advantage of my mercies and graces today. For now is the acceptable time. Now is the day of salvation. Do not presume on my mercy. Cleanse your soul in my precious blood and make your soul acceptable in my sight today. The words of the Lord.
see page 42
http://www.scribd.com/doc/22505473/God-Speaks-Will-You-Listen
You can know, sharing again, God’s revelation is made explicit through the prophetic, that’s why it is so important.
“It’s difficult to discuss these things with the chronically inconsistent because you never really know which side of the argument they are arguing or where their argument is leading. In this case it is preposterous that a proponent of predestination would not recognize that history is nothing more than God’s plan unfolding before them. What is in the past was His Word, and what has not yet happened is His Word yet to come.”...
~ ~ ~
I appreciate your reply, not a word from anyone else though.
When you give proof with Scripture or words from the first Christians and after it’s been asked for specifically, the comeback is rejection or silence.
Everyone thinks the Book of Revelation is fascinating, mysterious. Here, two verses are explained in prophecy, that’s sooo.. interesting, a great help for these times.
Apocalypse 6:16-17
And they say to the mountains and the rocks: Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of their wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?
GOD SPEAKS WILL YOU LISTEN
June, 07 A.M.
The Secrets of Man’s Hearts
...My people lay aside your secret sins. Focus on your Jesus, not on this world. REMOVE the sins from your life now in the hour of mercy by the light of my spirit. ALL OF MANKIND WILL SOON HAVE MY LIGHT SHINE INTO THEIR SOULS. WILL YOU BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND THAT DAY? OR WILL YOU CRY TO THE ROCKS AND THE MOUNTAINS TO COVER YOU AND TO TRY AND HIDE FROM MY PRESENCE? Better to be humble in my sight today than to wait until that hour. Take advantage of my mercies and graces today. For now is the acceptable time. Now is the day of salvation. Do not presume on my mercy. Cleanse your soul in my precious blood and make your soul acceptable in my sight today. The words of the Lord.
see page 42
http://www.scribd.com/doc/22505473/God-Speaks-Will-You-Listen
And yours is what? The hierarchy of the Catholic church and the Catholic clergy through the ages???????
Spare me.
The Holy Spirit in Scripture.
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Matthew 22:37-40 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
Don't go taking Scripture out of context now.
Matthew 23:1-36 23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.
8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
The Catholic church does NOT sit in Moses seat and that verse does NOT give that kind of authority to the Catholic church.
The only reason Jesus told them to listen to the scribes and Pharisees is because they had Scripture, the Law, to back them up. The Catholic church doesn't even have that as it doesn't recognize the absolute authority of Scripture. It places the magesterium and *Holy Tradition* on par with Scripture and claims to have even written Scripture itself, in effect making Scripture subservient to the Catholic church.
That simply will not work in God's economy. If the very words breathed out by God the Holy Spirit aren't enough for someone then there's no hope for them as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17)
Sources?
Catholics pick and choose what they want to believe of Catholic church teachings all the time. There's tons of private interpretation of Scripture and the CCC by Catholics on this board alone, not to mention all the Catholics any of us know personally.
I'll tell you, the amount of superstition that gets co-mingled with Catholicism by practicing Catholics is staggering. They'll make up all kinds of myths and fairy tales about church relics and saint, just as a small example.
That's the case for all Catholics.
Seems that nobody is capable of correctly interpreting Scripture, but IS capable of correctly interpreting the CCC, any officially sanctioned Catholic interpretation of Scripture, any teaching of *Holy Tradition* (Mary for example) that are not only not supported but completely contradicted by Scripture, prophesies and visions of who knows what source.....
But by God, nobody has the wherewithal to *correctly* interpret Scripture by the Catholic church definition.
It goes to show the depth of brainwashing that people cannot see the irony and hypocrisy of that kind of teaching.
I would wonder just which traditions are considered required believing and which may be taken as over heated imagination.
For example the tradition of Mary's early home and its frequent flier miles from the 13th. century. Tradition says the house was transported from the Holy Land and touched down three times before coming to a rest in Europe.
Presumably the angels that carried it were careful in the flights.
And then there is Helena, Constantine's mother, schlepping the Holy Land in the fourth century and finding not one, not two, but three crosses! and as an added bonus THE crown of thorns.
Well, at least tradition says so. Of course the locals would never pass off anything fake to some goy tourist...never.
Traditions, I just don't believe them over much.
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