Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
“I know you are new here, but this blatant falsehood has been disproved countless times. Perhaps you need to do a bit more “objective” studying before you try to teach everyone. I’m not Lutheran, but Luther did NOT toss out 7 books in the NEW Testament.”
~ ~ ~
The Canon of Scripture contain the Old and the New Testament
books. Luther did too remove 7 books from the Canon. I stated, the 7 came from the Old Testament. You misunderstood. This is fact, there were two Old Testament Canons. Luther was not guided by God, He threw out the wrong one.
“Luther tossed out the Old Testament Canon which Our Lord and the Apostles quoted from the most. There were two OT Canons, Jesus referred to the Alexandrian Canon also known as the Septuagint.”
” Without these “men” you wouldn’t have Holy Scripture. Man is involved, this is God’s way.”
CYC: Is this private interpretation and thus “heresy”?
~ ~ ~
No count-your-change, I am not interpreting Scripture on my own, I am stating a fact.
Then Christians are NOT to examine the Scriptures on their own in imitation of those noble minded Beroeans?
Then why were they termed “noble minded”? For checking to to see if the things they heard from Paul “were really so”?
Were they making a “private interpretation”? or were they cited as an example for Christians?
Of course. Self interpretation, and misinterpretation at that according to your comments, is only when I quote the Bible instead of some tradition.
You said, “Without these “men” you wouldn’t have Holy Scripture. Man is involved, this is God’s way.”
but whether men were involved or not was never in question only that in agreement with the Scriptures we are not to be followers of men. (1 Cor. 1:10-13)
The oral traditions of both old and new covenants were and are important and those traditions Jesus castigated were those that conflicted with the written word, saying, “it is written” or “have you not read?”.
In Matthew chapter 12 Jesus showed the Pharisees knew what the Law said but didn’t truly understand what it meant and then Jesus pointed out how the traditions of men contradicted the written law of God. (Matt. 15:1-11)
Therefore if we are to avoid that error of the Pharisees we would do well to compare any tradition to God’s written word and reject what does match it as Jesus did.
“No count-your-change, I am not interpreting Scripture on my own, I am stating a fact.”
Of course. Self interpretation, and misinterpretation at that according to your comments, is only when I quote the Bible instead of some tradition.
You said, “Without these “men” you wouldn’t have Holy Scripture. Man is involved, this is God’s way.”
but whether men were involved or not was never in question only that in agreement with the Scriptures we are not to be followers of men. (1 Cor. 1:10-13)
~ ~ ~
You’re posting my comments twice, I already replied to to
your objections. You’re repeating the same protest.
You have no authority to interpret Scripture and no matter how many times you repeat it, Scripture doesn’t interpret itself.
What question, it’s your whole disagreement, you reject the “man” who canonized Scripture and the “man” who translated
the original writings and the council of “men” who confirmed
the “man’s” choices for the Canon. You reject the God given
authority of the Church. You wish to be your own authority.
“What of the rest of His words passed down from the Apostles?’”
And what might these be? A human priesthood within the Christian church? The Immaculate Conception of Mary? Her bodily assumption into heaven?
Tradition perhaps but not part of God's Word and therein lies the problem of traditions of men.
“How do you have the “model of Christ?” Who gave it to you?”
I'll take that as a rhetorical question since I've already dealt with that whole question in detail.
“Our Lord mentioning the chair of Moses is proof there is the Oral Word.”
Just what is this seat of Moses?
I understand where your argument is leading, I believe. That an “Oral Word” exists as a body of teachings on a par with the inspired written Scriptures and that furthermore the Catholic Church is the repository of this “Oral Word”.
“Are you raising up the written tradition by saying the oral tradition is “usually” (your cover) wrong per Our Lord?”
I don't need any “cover”, it was Christ who said over and again, “It is written” (no I didn't take a count).
“You wish to be your own authority.”
Please, Do try to be serious.
“In Matthew chapter 12 Jesus showed the Pharisees knew what the Law said but didn’t truly understand what it meant and then Jesus pointed out how the traditions of men contradicted the written law of God. (Matt. 15:1-11)
Therefore if we are to avoid that error of the Pharisees we would do well to compare any tradition to God’s written word and reject what does match it as Jesus did.”
~ ~ ~
The teachings of the Church are Christ’s teachings. You
reject them to follow your own interpretation of Christ’s
teachings while you quote a Catholic book, the Bible.
The “traditions of men” are the false teachings of men
and their false show of piety, not God’s law. God’s law has
been revealed through His oral and written Word.
“The Commandments of Men” spoken of in Matthew 15:9 is referenced by two verses in the footnote on this verse.
Follow the Apostles and their successors in the Church
Jesus founded, the RCC.
Luke 10:16
He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
and
Matt 18:17
And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Yes, I do tend to repeat things for emphasis. Sometimes it takes a lot of water to penetrate stone.
“You wish to be your own authority.”
Please, Do try to be serious.
~ ~ ~
You say you reject Sola Scriptura. Why don’t you reject
Protestantism totally? Come to the faith, there is only one.
Thank you and good night.
You can know, sharing again, God’s revelation is made explicit through the prophetic, that’s why it is so important.
“It’s difficult to discuss these things with the chronically inconsistent because you never really know which side of the argument they are arguing or where their argument is leading. In this case it is preposterous that a proponent of predestination would not recognize that history is nothing more than God’s plan unfolding before them. What is in the past was His Word, and what has not yet happened is His Word yet to come.”...
~ ~ ~
I appreciate your reply, not a word from anyone else though.
When you give proof with Scripture or words from the first Christians and after it’s been asked for specifically, the comeback is rejection or silence.
Everyone thinks the Book of Revelation is fascinating, mysterious. Here, two verses are explained in prophecy, that’s sooo.. interesting, a great help for these times.
Apocalypse 6:16-17
And they say to the mountains and the rocks: Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of their wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?
GOD SPEAKS WILL YOU LISTEN
June, 07 A.M.
The Secrets of Man’s Hearts
...My people lay aside your secret sins. Focus on your Jesus, not on this world. REMOVE the sins from your life now in the hour of mercy by the light of my spirit. ALL OF MANKIND WILL SOON HAVE MY LIGHT SHINE INTO THEIR SOULS. WILL YOU BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND THAT DAY? OR WILL YOU CRY TO THE ROCKS AND THE MOUNTAINS TO COVER YOU AND TO TRY AND HIDE FROM MY PRESENCE? Better to be humble in my sight today than to wait until that hour. Take advantage of my mercies and graces today. For now is the acceptable time. Now is the day of salvation. Do not presume on my mercy. Cleanse your soul in my precious blood and make your soul acceptable in my sight today. The words of the Lord.
see page 42
http://www.scribd.com/doc/22505473/God-Speaks-Will-You-Listen
You can know, sharing again, God’s revelation is made explicit through the prophetic, that’s why it is so important.
“It’s difficult to discuss these things with the chronically inconsistent because you never really know which side of the argument they are arguing or where their argument is leading. In this case it is preposterous that a proponent of predestination would not recognize that history is nothing more than God’s plan unfolding before them. What is in the past was His Word, and what has not yet happened is His Word yet to come.”...
~ ~ ~
I appreciate your reply, not a word from anyone else though.
When you give proof with Scripture or words from the first Christians and after it’s been asked for specifically, the comeback is rejection or silence.
Everyone thinks the Book of Revelation is fascinating, mysterious. Here, two verses are explained in prophecy, that’s sooo.. interesting, a great help for these times.
Apocalypse 6:16-17
And they say to the mountains and the rocks: Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of their wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?
GOD SPEAKS WILL YOU LISTEN
June, 07 A.M.
The Secrets of Man’s Hearts
...My people lay aside your secret sins. Focus on your Jesus, not on this world. REMOVE the sins from your life now in the hour of mercy by the light of my spirit. ALL OF MANKIND WILL SOON HAVE MY LIGHT SHINE INTO THEIR SOULS. WILL YOU BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND THAT DAY? OR WILL YOU CRY TO THE ROCKS AND THE MOUNTAINS TO COVER YOU AND TO TRY AND HIDE FROM MY PRESENCE? Better to be humble in my sight today than to wait until that hour. Take advantage of my mercies and graces today. For now is the acceptable time. Now is the day of salvation. Do not presume on my mercy. Cleanse your soul in my precious blood and make your soul acceptable in my sight today. The words of the Lord.
see page 42
http://www.scribd.com/doc/22505473/God-Speaks-Will-You-Listen
And yours is what? The hierarchy of the Catholic church and the Catholic clergy through the ages???????
Spare me.
The Holy Spirit in Scripture.
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Matthew 22:37-40 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
Don't go taking Scripture out of context now.
Matthew 23:1-36 23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.
8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
The Catholic church does NOT sit in Moses seat and that verse does NOT give that kind of authority to the Catholic church.
The only reason Jesus told them to listen to the scribes and Pharisees is because they had Scripture, the Law, to back them up. The Catholic church doesn't even have that as it doesn't recognize the absolute authority of Scripture. It places the magesterium and *Holy Tradition* on par with Scripture and claims to have even written Scripture itself, in effect making Scripture subservient to the Catholic church.
That simply will not work in God's economy. If the very words breathed out by God the Holy Spirit aren't enough for someone then there's no hope for them as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17)
Sources?
Catholics pick and choose what they want to believe of Catholic church teachings all the time. There's tons of private interpretation of Scripture and the CCC by Catholics on this board alone, not to mention all the Catholics any of us know personally.
I'll tell you, the amount of superstition that gets co-mingled with Catholicism by practicing Catholics is staggering. They'll make up all kinds of myths and fairy tales about church relics and saint, just as a small example.
That's the case for all Catholics.
Seems that nobody is capable of correctly interpreting Scripture, but IS capable of correctly interpreting the CCC, any officially sanctioned Catholic interpretation of Scripture, any teaching of *Holy Tradition* (Mary for example) that are not only not supported but completely contradicted by Scripture, prophesies and visions of who knows what source.....
But by God, nobody has the wherewithal to *correctly* interpret Scripture by the Catholic church definition.
It goes to show the depth of brainwashing that people cannot see the irony and hypocrisy of that kind of teaching.
I would wonder just which traditions are considered required believing and which may be taken as over heated imagination.
For example the tradition of Mary's early home and its frequent flier miles from the 13th. century. Tradition says the house was transported from the Holy Land and touched down three times before coming to a rest in Europe.
Presumably the angels that carried it were careful in the flights.
And then there is Helena, Constantine's mother, schlepping the Holy Land in the fourth century and finding not one, not two, but three crosses! and as an added bonus THE crown of thorns.
Well, at least tradition says so. Of course the locals would never pass off anything fake to some goy tourist...never.
Traditions, I just don't believe them over much.
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