Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Protestants? Legalistic? That accusation coming from a Catholic? Seriously? When was the last time you heard of a Protestant having to go to confession for forgiveness of sins? How many Protestants do you hear make the comment that they don’t know if they lived a pure enough life to enter heaven? When have you heard a Protestant paying or praying for friends in purgatory hoping beyond hope that somehow someone somewhere atones for the sins of those in purgatory? I don’t know what Protestants you’re referring to but they certainly aren’t the Protestants I know.
Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Put that Catholic propaganda that wants to keep you in bondage in the garbage and start getting into scripture to find the true freedom Christ brings.
It’s Catholics who claim Mary is as sinless as Christ was. It’s Catholics who call Mary co-redemtrix along with Christ. Looks to me as if Catholics do indeed make Mary equal to Christ in many things.
It’s no wonder Catholics aren’t sure of their salvation.
It’s Catholics who are forced to suffer the ignorance and foolishness of those who are either too intellectually incapable, too intellectually lazy or are too intellectually dishonest to learn the actual teachings of the Church before spouting off. What it looks like to you is of no consequence. An invalid charge does not warrant a defense, it only deserves a correction.
If you want to know the actual teachings of the Church and cannot locate a suitable, credible source please ask, there are many Catholics that can explain this to you. But if your response will again be "no it doesn't", please save yourself and everyone else involved the time and effort.
May the peace of Christ come upon you.
Catholics are quite sure about what is needed for Salvation. The only uncertainty is in ourselves.
"Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." - Mark 14:38
Peace be with you.
Maybe a hint would be when Jesus told the woman at the well to drink “living water”. John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Like I said, unsure of their salvation.
>>"Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." - Mark 14:38<<
What’s that got to do with salvation? Salvation doesn’t depend on what we do. It depends on what God does in us.
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Paul rebukes Peter for applying rules for salvation.
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Catholics need to renounce the attitude that they can somehow “earn” or “deserve” salvation by something they do. If they don’t they “nullify the grace of God”
So do you deny that Mary was sinless as Christ was? Do you deny that Mary is co-redemtrix?
“I use paper maps.
And guess who never gets lost that way?”
~ ~ ~
I am agreeing...
Yes, friends tell me they got lost using the Internet instruction. It’s worked for me sometimes and few times...no.
Hard to believe, isn't it? Staggering in it's irony.
Catholicism is the epitome of legalism.
Do this. Don't do that.
You have to be baptized to be saved, but that doesn't quite do it.
You also have to take communion to be saved, except that that isn't enough either.
You have to go to confession to be eligible to take communion.
In addition, to be eligible for communion, you also have to do the penance they require of you to show how sorry you are for your sins.
And then communion doesn't quite do it either. You have to do all kinds of charitable works and give money.
But wait a minute, even after jumping through all those hoops, you STILL DON'T KNOW whether you're going to make it or not. You won't find out until you get there and have your good works weighed against the bad and see which you have more of.
Catholicism gives the Pharisees a real run for their money in the legalism department.
Thank God that Christ has set us free from the bondage of the Law.
Isn't forgiveness grand?
Please do not misconstrew Catholic teachings by representing them as you believe them to be. As I have offered before I and any number of other Catechists will assist you in answering your questions and difficulties and explaining them in as much detail as you with, but bleating out misconceptions in the form of a challenge will only detract from the process. And again, if you are only here to mock or ridicule then please don't bother.
Mary was preserved sinless by God, she did not achieve it by herself or embody sinlessness like Jesus, so yours was an apples and oranges question.
Mary is indeed the Co-repemptrix, but is not coequal with God. The term "co-redemptrix" is properly translated "the woman with the redeemer". Mary is an important but unequal participant in our redemption by Her cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
Peace be with you.
You are right, Catholicism is not for the dull-witted and lazy.
Peace be with you.
>> Why does Jesus explain to Nicodemus it involves “water and Spirit?”<<
CB said:
Maybe a hint would be when Jesus told the woman at the well to drink “living water”. John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
~ ~ ~
I asked where is the “water” in the Protestant new
definition of “Born Again?” My question wasn’t included
in the quote above. I can see why. Jesus told Nicodemus
the use of water and God’s actions are involved in being
“Born Again” which is Baptism. You don’t “drink” water in Baptism.
Jesus explains the meaning of Born Again in John Chapter 3, again, I have to repeat, Jesus went out and baptized in John 3:22.
John 3:4-5
Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again? [5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Relative to this, when asked in an interview in 2000 whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, then-Cardinal Ratzinger responded that “the response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings” (53).
He went on to say that, “Everything comes from Him [Christ], as their Latter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him. The word “Co-redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way. “For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language” (God and the world: believing and living in our time, by Pope Benedict XVI, Peter Seewald, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2000, p. 306 ;http://books.google.com/books?id=M4EO-Zotb4AC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Peter+Seewald+God+and+the+World&hl=en&ei=Jh_LTvSyG8HL0QH5o6En&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-preview-link&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=continuity%20of%20terminology%20with%20the%20language%20of%20Scripture&f=false ^
Concerning the sinless attribution among others, see http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/MarySC.html#Contents
“Catholicism is the epitome of legalism.
Do this. Don’t do that.
You have to be baptized to be saved, but that doesn’t quite do it.
You also have to take communion to be saved, except that that isn’t enough either.
You have to go to confession to be eligible to take communion.
In addition, to be eligible for communion, you also have to do the penance they require of you to show how sorry you are for your sins.
And then communion doesn’t quite do it either. You have to do all kinds of charitable works and give money.
But wait a minute, even after jumping through all those hoops, you STILL DON’T KNOW whether you’re going to make it or not. You won’t find out until you get there and have your good works weighed against the bad and see which you have more of.”
~ ~ ~
The reason for these, as stated “legalisms”, the quote is mainly talking about the Sacraments, all of them instituted by God. In the 7 Sacraments you can be assured of God’s grace.
God’s grace helps you to be good. God’s grace, His presence in your soul is needed to get to Heaven. The question below, a help to simply explain the Sacraments.
* How would Jesus provide for the flow of grace to individual souls? *
Would the whole thing be invisible?
Would God simply give to each person of good will a silent inner conviction of being saved?
Each time that we felt the need of divine help, would we simply ask for it and immediately feel welling up within us a great surge of spiritual strength?
Consistent with how we are made God could have done it that way, of course. But God chose to be consistent. He chose to deal with man, in this matter of grace, in the same manner in which He had made man—through a union of the MATERIAL and the SPIRITUAL, of body and of soul.
The grace itself would be invisible, as by its nature it must be. But the grace would come to us through the visible things that we deal with daily.
And so God took the common things from the world about us—objects which we could taste and touch and feel, words that we could hear and gestures that we could understand—and made these the carriers of His grace.
A Sacrament is an ~ outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.
“Catholicism is the epitome of legalism.
Do this. Don’t do that.
You have to be baptized to be saved, but that doesn’t quite do it.
You also have to take communion to be saved, except that that isn’t enough either.
You have to go to confession to be eligible to take communion.
In addition, to be eligible for communion, you also have to do the penance they require of you to show how sorry you are for your sins.
And then communion doesn’t quite do it either. You have to do all kinds of charitable works and give money.
But wait a minute, even after jumping through all those hoops, you STILL DON’T KNOW whether you’re going to make it or not. You won’t find out until you get there and have your good works weighed against the bad and see which you have more of.”
~ ~ ~
The reason for these, as stated “legalisms”, the quote is mainly talking about the Sacraments, all of them instituted by God. In the 7 Sacraments you can be assured of God’s grace.
God’s grace helps you to be good. God’s grace, His presence in your soul is needed to get to Heaven. The question below, a help to simply explain the Sacraments.
* How would Jesus provide for the flow of grace to individual souls? *
Would the whole thing be invisible?
Would God simply give to each person of good will a silent inner conviction of being saved?
Each time that we felt the need of divine help, would we simply ask for it and immediately feel welling up within us a great surge of spiritual strength?
Consistent with how we are made God could have done it that way, of course. But God chose to be consistent. He chose to deal with man, in this matter of grace, in the same manner in which He had made man—through a union of the MATERIAL and the SPIRITUAL, of body and of soul.
The grace itself would be invisible, as by its nature it must be. But the grace would come to us through the visible things that we deal with daily.
And so God took the common things from the world about us—objects which we could taste and touch and feel, words that we could hear and gestures that we could understand—and made these the carriers of His grace.
A Sacrament is an ~ outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.
Actually, I do not know of anything that would disallow the Catholic from allowing for the promise of presently knowing you are saved based upon fruits of regeneration, (1Jn. 5:13; “these things,”) but what is disallowed by Trent is certainty - except by “special; revelation” - that one will never fall:
“No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.” [Trent, The Sixth Session, CHAPTER XII, http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06.html]
One must first be born again by personal repentance and faith out of a poor and contrite heart in the Lord Jesus to save one as a damned and destitute sinner, but saving faith is one that endures, which historic evangelical faith preached. And thus Scripture warns against apostasy, (Heb. 10:19-38; Gal. 5:1-4) and chastisement to effect repentance. (1Cor. 11:32) For God plays for keeps, not the Red Sox.
Sorry daniel, without Mary’s free will cooperation with
God in the plan of redemption we would not have been
redeemed, Jesus would not of become a human person.
People shouldn’t take the rejection of Mary by some of the reformers personal. You will come to accept her help and her love at the Great Warning when God makes things clear to everyone in the world.
We are all “co-redeemers” but in a lessor way by our prayers
and sufferings, those are personal “crosses” you offer to God for our families and other loved ones, for their conversion.
Mary of course, in a much greater way. ~Co-~ means WITH.
It isn't "my" way at all! What does God say? It appears that no matter how many times the canard is disputed that "Protestant" denominationalism means thousands of different interpretations of Scripture, people such as you refuse to hear it and actually think about and throw it up at every opportunity. It is intellectually dishonest and those who use it - even after being corrected - prove that they have no genuine interest in dialog and only participate to try to get the better of another. When comments such as yours start being ignored, you will know why.
Not one Catholic I’ve ever met was sure of making it to heaven.
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