Posted on 07/03/2012 4:52:59 PM PDT by Salvation
Oops, I said “demon posing as Saul.” Meant “Demon posing as Samuel.”
Another point to make with this incident with Saul and the witch. Note this “Samuel” did not encourage Saul to repentance. Even in the event of God taking away a Kingdom, He would not hesitate to forgive and show mercy to someone who calls.
1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
As you can see, this only had the effect of driving Saul into utter despair. It made him feel doomed to hell, not once bringing to mind God’s forgiveness if he repented, though forgiveness would not necessarily imply a return of power to the throne. This result (of despair) is probably why you don’t go around speaking with strange spirits in the first place, especially none called from a Demon possessed Witch. They lie, like the witches who entangled Macbeth, speaking lies like truth to ensnare the foolish.
And yet Scripture says: "And Saul answered…", not: "a demon posing as Samuel answered…"
Well then his sin was double! He was going to a witch/medium - which was against God's commands - and he was trying to contact the dead - ALSO against God's clear commands. Saul was trying to "get around" God by trying to get some inside knowledge and guidance on what was about to happen in battle. He was showing he did not trust God anymore. Verses that speak to God's commands about not seeking the dead are:
2.“Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31)
3.“And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6)
4.“So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)
We are NEVER told to pray TO nor FOR the dead. Through Jesus Christ - our one Mediator - we have access to the throne of grace and to Almighty God. Why would anyone possibly want to find another way to go to God when we can go to Him directly? My feeling about this is, just like when God was displeased by Saul seeking guidance from Samuel rather than God directly, it is like we forget that God is a jealous God. He alone deserves ALL glory and honor and nothing is too hard for Him. Praying to the dead to ask them to ask God about something on our hearts is, to me, a form of disloyalty. It is like being afraid to ask Dad for something and going to Mom who will ask him for us. How would that make a loving and caring Dad feel? I would think it would hurt his feelings to know his own child did not trust his love enough to come to him directly. If that is a human emotion, how much more does it mean to the Creator of us all?
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? (Romans 8:32)
“And yet Scripture says: “And Saul answered…”, not: “a demon posing as Samuel answered…”
(Formatting with first post looked too funky):
You are suggesting that witches with their demons have the power to “disquiet” and bring up dead Saints against their will. You are saying that God, who has outlawed divination and all demonic works, would allow his Saints to be brought up by Demonic powers. And, finally, you are ignoring the character of Samuel himself, who always recommended an immediate righting of ways to, perchance, receive mercy of God. All of this gives to witchcraft and divination a power none of it actually possesses. This contradicts other scriptures and the spirit of God. Do you think that any Jew of that time would have thought, Oh, a witch who uses FAMILIAR SPIRITS, is actually channeling the REAL Samuel?
Common sense man. Live it, love it, learn it.
1Sa_28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Hi. As Catholics, we do not view Christians in heaven as "dead" simply because their earthly bodies have perished. That said, in Rev 5:8 the elders in heaven intercede for Christians on earth. In Rev 8:3 angels offer the prayers of Christians. In Rev 6:10 we are told that the martyrs in heaven are aware of things on earth. In Lk 15:7,10 Jesus tells us that there is joy in heaven over the repentant sinner, another reference that saints (holy persons in heaven, if you prefer) are aware of things on earth. And in verse 10 Jesus confirms this about angels too. Paul also indicates the angels are aware of happenings on earth, as he charges Timothy to be obedient in the presence of the elect angels (1 Tim 5:21). While I'm not a believer in proof texting, I do believe there are ample verses to support the Catholic view that angels and saints are aware of events on earth. You are, of course, free to disagree.
And yet Scripture says: “And Saul answered…” If you do not accept the plain words of Bible that is your problem, not mine.
Good point, though I DO think God allowed Samuel to talk to Saul rather than it being a demon posing as Samuel and this is certainly an exception that does not prove the rule. I think it is funny that this Witch of Endor was terrified that Saul came to her, since in I Samuel 28:3 says, " Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land." Saul disguised himself and went to her at night. When he asked her to consult a spirit and call up someone for him, she answered, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?".
So Saul reassures her by telling her she won't be put to death for doing this, but she still didn't know it was the king asking for this. She asked him who he wanted brought up and he said, Samuel. It was when she saw Samuel, that she freaked out and recognized that King Saul was there with her. She starts screaming, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” I get the impression that, like most self-professed mediums, palm readers, etc., that she wasn't used to actually having a real spirit come to her. I think she was shocked that it happened at all.
When Saul believed it was Samuel that the witch was seeing - she described him to Saul, though Saul never actually saw him - and Saul laments that God doesn't hear him anymore, he asks Samuel what he should do about the Philistines. Samuel says, "Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.” (I Samuel 28:16-19)
What happened afterward was exactly as Samuel said it would. In I Samuel 31:1-6, we read:
This is why I don't think it was a demon posing as Samuel. The events DID happen as Samuel said they would and no demon has the power to subvert God's plans. Saul had already messed up so bad before the Lord, that he knew there was no coming back. He blew it! And David was to be the new King over Israel.
I think it is unwise to underestimate the theatrics of devils, especially since man is prone to emotionalism. That was why I included Clarke’s commentary, which described both a familiar spirit, the sense of the Hebrew word, and an example from the Aeneid of a woman in a divine ecstasy.
Also keep in mind the very first words out of this “Samuel’s” mouth, which was Who has “disquieted” him from his rest. If it was God, or some angel, don’t you think Samuel would have come up with a prepared message that did not give glory to the supposed powers of darkness?
Matthew Henry makes the same point:
“I. The spectre, or apparition, personating Samuel, asks why he is sent for (1Sa_28:15): Why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up? To us this discovers that it was an evil spirit that personated Samuel; for (as bishop Patrick observes) it is not in the power of witches to disturb the rest of good men and to bring them back into the world when they please; nor would the true Samuel have acknowledged such a power in magical arts: but to Saul this was a proper device of Satan’s, to draw veneration from him, to possess him with an opinion of the power of divination, and so to rivet him in the devil’s interests.”
I forgot to include this, but I also do not think it was beyond the intellect and knowledge of Satan to comprehend that Saul was in immediate danger of judgment. I’ve read some books and testimony from former Occultists, and while their “familiars” (Spirit guides, who always claim to be some dead person, or a god, or sometimes Jesus, hence “familiar”) often gave fraudulent predictions, at other times they spoke true, though probably the devils were lucky, the prediction wasn’t that incredible, or they put it into motion themselves. We should not underestimate the deceptive power of the devils.
Well, no, that’s more of a neoorthodox subjectivist approach to Scripture. Not Sola Scriptura at all. Sola Scriptura doesn’t interfere with the proper function of the teaching ministry and authority of the church. It does assert that Scripture alone is sufficient to serve as the rule of Christian faith, that whatever is not verifiable from Scripture, while it may be useful and interesting, is not binding on the believer’s conscience. It is essentially identical to the position taken by Athanatius, who used the Scriptures as the supreme authority in his lonely battle against the Arian heresy, to which even the Bishop of Rome had briefly succumbed.
I'll just quickly mention some parallels that former Protestant pastor and Biblical scholar Scott Hahn points out between the first chapter of Luke and the 6th chapter of 2nd Samuel, where Luke calls up imagery from David's moving of the Ark and Mary's journey to Elizabeth.
Both "arose and went" (2 Sm 6:2, Lk 1:39) into the same hill country. Both Elizabeth and David feel unworthy (2 Sm 6:9, Lk 1:43) and ask a similar question. The unborn John leaps (Lk 1:41,44) and David leaps and dances (2 Sm 6:16). Both Mary and the Ark stay for 3 months (Lk 1:56, 2 Sm 6:11). In Lk 1:42, Luke uses the same verb for Elizabeth's exclamation as the Old Testament verb used by the levites for chants of praise to God, which is significant because Elizabeth is of Levitical descent (Lk 1:5). The verb is not used elsewhere in the New Testament and is used in the Old Testament only in describing events related to the Ark of the Covenant. Now protestants reading this may say I'm grasping at straws. When I was protestant, I might have agreed with them. But in the Catholic method of reading scripture, these are not mere trivialities.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
They can hear or do anything through God’s grace.
Luk 1:42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! Luk 1:43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Elizabeth clearly refers to Mary as the Mother of her Lord.
You do beleive that Jesus is God right?
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Now you can say with full confidence that you are familiar with at least one verse.
So many of these Protestants keep referring to themselves as “Bible Christians” yet when you, Petronious, Salvation, others and myself point out very clear texts they jump through all sorts of hoops to deny the plain text.
Most of the non-catholic folks debating on the RF are not Protestants. There are a few, but they got scandalised by the heterodox folks putting themselves under the umbrella of “Protestant”. You have Modalists, Arians, Jehovah’s witnesses, Unitarians, Messianic Jews and even one Moslem who thinks he iscool yammering on.
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