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To: CTrent1564; Lee N. Field; Cronos

“However, Calvins TULIP doctrine does suggest man is so totally depraved that he has absolutely “no Free will”.”

Being able to make choices does not equate to free will. The Reformed view is that total depravation extends to all aspects of humanity, including the will. One can make choices, but always within the framework of the underlying corrupt nature or will.

Can one make choices which appear to be good? Of course. But that takes you no further than the subjective atheistic “morality” of what “works”. In other words you do what suits society, or to drill it down further, what “works” for you.


33 posted on 07/07/2012 8:01:34 AM PDT by Diapason
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To: Diapason; Lee N. Field; Cronos

Diapason:

That is where Catholic as well as Eastern Orthodox Theology and Calvinism part ways. To reject Free will makes it theologically impossible to say “we can Love the way Christ asks us to Love” for to Love in Christian theological context implys a total self giving of oneself to another. So in the case of St. Paul speaking of the three theological virtures, Faith, Hope and Love[charity] he clearly states we are to “walk in Love as Christ Loved us” [cf Ephes 5:1-2] and for Christians to “Love one another genuinely..and with mutual affection” [cf Romans 12: 9-13]. And St. Paul would clearly state that among the three theological virtures [Faith, Hope and Love], Love/Charity is superior to all them for he writes “If I .....have not Love, I am Nothing...Whatever my privelege, service or even virtue, if I have not charity, I gain nothing [1 Cor 13:1-4] so “faith, hope and charity abide, these three but the greatest is Love [cf 1 Cor 13:13].

So why does St. Paul speak of Love as the superior Theological virtue, not that it is in conflict with Faith, Hope and Love, for all necessary for a orthodox Christian. The answer clearly lies with the nature of God as Trinity for God is Love [cf. 1 John 4:8] thus God’s very nature is an Eternal act of Love. The 1st Epistle of John clearly speaks of God’s nature and his salvific will for humanity to send his Son for the reconciliation of humanity as and act of Love and for Christians to Love as Christ has loved us [too many passages to cite, the entire epistle is about this].

The fact that the epistles [St. Paul’s writings and St. John] as well as the Letters of James and 1 Peter speak of “Love” so much because that was so clearly stated by Christ as I think in the Gospels [Love and Truth] are the 2 words that are most stated by Christ. Christ makes Love the new commandment...and by loving his flock to the end [cf. John 13:34; 13:1] he clearly tells his Apostles as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; abide in my love and commands them to love one another as I have loved you [cf. John 15: 9-12]. In St. Matthew’s Gospel we here Christ state “You should Love the Lord your God with all your heart with your soul and all your mind...This is the 1st and greatest commandment....The second is like it...You shall love your neigher as yourself..

I could go on and on but I think you see the foundation of what I am building. To say that we have “no free will” can’t be reconciled with the theological virture of Love. Love is a mutual total self giving of oneself to another. Christ gave himself totally for the salvation of humanity, an act of Love [no one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friend; cf. John 15:13]. If someone puts a gun to my head and tells me to love my parents or my wife, is that love???? or is that duress? Clearly, in my view is ain’t love!!!.

So going back to the original point of the thread, the statement by some of the SBC’s that “mans free will has not been incapacitated by original sin” does sound like the error of Pelagius. On that point, I think Cronos clearly pointed out that the Catholic theological position clearly rejects that notion as man’s free will has been damaged and wounded such that man’s natural powers have been wounded so that he is subject to ignorance, suffering, aand the dominion of death and inclination to sin. However, man’s natural has not been totally corrupted [CCC 405].

So on this point I think the Calvinist Baptist criticism of the non-Calvinist position regarding “man not being incapacitated by original sin” is correct [so how about that]. Let’s be honest, if Catholics here were making such statements, you Reformed-Calvinist guys would be screaming that we Catholics are “Pelagians” and teaching a purely works notion of salvation that man could obtain communion with God apart from God’s Grace. Your criticism would be correct! Of course, the Catholic Church teaches no such thing. So on the point above, Catholic and Reformed Theology are in general agreement.

However, to say that Man has “No Free Will” is problematic because to truly Love God and Love my parents, my Wife and my neighbor [the hardest to do no doubt] still requires man’s freedom to be intact. How do we Love as Christ commanded us, that can only occur thru God’s Grace but nevertheless, man is still has his Freedom.

Now, how does God’s Grace and the theological virtures of Faith, Hope and Love and man’s free will get totally reconciled, I think that is one of the Divine Mysteries that we may never be able to totally reconcile this side of heaven. Still, rejecting one if them leads to theological problems.

Now if you are one of the non-strict Hyper Calvinist who understands man’s free will as corrupt but not “totally corrupt” then whether you realize it or not, you are actually articulating a theological position consistent with the Catholic Church as I noted in my reference to CCC #405.


35 posted on 07/07/2012 10:33:38 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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