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To: BipolarBob
This is from the link provided earlier.

4. Serious Abuses - Those which Invalidate the Mass
The serious abuses which invalidate the Mass are all those which inhibit transubstantiation, that is fail to bring about Jesus’ True Presence in the Eucharist. The Church has very specifically defined what must - and must not - occur so that transubstantiation will result. There are four conditions required for a valid Consecration resulting in the miracle of transubstantiation. All of these conditions must be present for a valid Consecration. This is dogma. Therefore, anyone who denies these requirements is liable to heresy.”

But since the bread remains bread with all the attributes of bread and the wine remains wine with all the attributes of wine how would anyone know when or if this transubstantiation has taken place?
They don't, the whole doctrine is the result of a willful misunderstanding of the word “estin”.

16 posted on 07/11/2012 7:17:50 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

In your post you omitted the caveat “in my unlearned opinion.”


70 posted on 07/11/2012 6:19:31 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: count-your-change
"But since the bread remains bread with all the attributes of bread and the wine remains wine with all the attributes of wine how would anyone know when or if this transubstantiation has taken place?"

So if you asked Jesus to enter your heart, and you asked Him to change you and fill you with the Holy Spirit, you obviously later would not believe that any of that could possibly have really happened, since, if a surgeon were to cut your heart open (and all other physical parts of you), you would not be able to see either Jesus or the Holy Spirit in there, or any changes visible inside your body at all, with your very limited physical human eyes, right?

(Would you ever even pray to God, or would you say "God does not exist", since you can't physically see Him or His Presence ANYWHERE with your very limited human eyes?)

Whatever your actual beliefs are right now, do you think anyone could find and recognize those beliefs if they cut open your brain or your heart or any part of you?    If not, does that mean that you don't really hold those beliefs, since your beliefs cannot be seen anywhere in what looks like just a bunch of human biological tissue to everyone's human eyes?

Does God have the power to be present somewhere in a special way chosen by God, if you can't see it with your own limited human vision, or is that impossible for God?

I would suggest you begin right now to consider trusting completely in the honest and trustworthy words of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible, and not continue to rely on your own limited vision and thoughts, and I'd suggest also that you begin to investigate the true meaning of "faith".

86 posted on 07/11/2012 9:16:46 PM PDT by Heart-Rest ("The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: count-your-change
They don't, the whole doctrine is the result of a willful misunderstanding of the word “estin”.

That's a new one on me. What do you mean by "estin", and how does this affect the dogma of Transubstantiation?

110 posted on 07/12/2012 11:22:19 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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