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This is a **SERIOUSLY** bad article.

Dr. Horton treats legalization of homosexual domestic partnerships as being an open question with legitimate arguments on both sides. While he opposes gay marriages, he says this: "Although a contractual relationship denies God’s will for human dignity, I could affirm domestic partnerships as a way of protecting people’s legal and economic security." Again, "The challenge there is that two Christians who hold the same beliefs about marriage as Christians may appeal to neighbor-love to support or to oppose legalization of same-sex marriage."

This is based on Dr. Horton's longstanding and wrong belief that Judeo-Christian ethics are not a valid ground for civil law. In his words, "On one hand, it may be said that if we can no longer say that 'Judeo-Christian' ethics are part of our shared worldview as a republic, then the ban seems arbitrary. Why isn’t there a campaign being waged to ban providing legal benefits to unmarried heterosexual couples? Or to make divorce more difficult? It just seems more symbolic than anything else: it looks like our last-gasp effort to enforce our own private morality on the public."

However, we need to keep in mind that Dr. Horton has done a great deal of good. Often when there's smoke, there's fire. Sometimes, however, there's just a lot of smoke because somebody set off a stink bomb in the house. Certainly a stink bomb isn't good, but it's not as bad as a full-blown four-alarm fully-involved structure fire with people trapped inside.

As Calvinists, perhaps this will help us remember that as much as we may respect prominent men, we revere God's Written Word, not man's many words. In this case, we have an author who has done a lot of good for the church whose bad theology on "Two Kingdoms" has led him down a wrong path.

Dr. Horton is not a liberal and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know the meaning of the word "liberal." However, it should be a major warning to all of us when a man like Dr. Horton can write something this bad and get away with something which, if written by a PC(USA) minister, would spark howls of protest from conservatives who thought he'd gone soft on homosexuality.

Reformed people on Free Republic may want to "Freep" Westminster-West. Their president is Dr. W. Robert Godfrey, who was one of the leaders of the secession from the Christian Reformed Church that began the United Reformed Churches in North America, in which both Dr. Godfrey and Dr. Horton are ordained ministers. I believe Dr. Godfrey will listen carefully to well-reasoned concerns from well-meaning Reformed people -- and he is very much aware that a major reason why his seminary started was because conservatives were upset with Calvin Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids.

Dr. W. Robert Godfrey Westminster Theological Seminary 1725 Bear Valley Parkway Escondido, CA 92027 (760) 480-8474 www.wscal.edu

If you write, be respectful. Dr. Horton is an ordained minister and deserves to be treated with the respect due to his office. That goes double for Dr. Godfrey, who I strongly suspect is very unhappy with the comments in this article but quite correctly has to follow proper procedures to respond to things written by his professors.

1 posted on 08/15/2012 7:38:33 PM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: darrellmaurina

“anyone who thinks otherwise doesn’t know the meaning of the word “liberal.”

Part of what is means to be a “liberal” is to write tripe like that article, which is wrong on many points.

Wolves in sheep’s clothing don’t deserve respect.


2 posted on 08/15/2012 7:55:01 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: darrellmaurina

“First, it is certainly true that America is not a Christian nation and in any case Christians should not seek to promote distinctively Christian doctrines and practices through the properly coercive power of the state.”

Seriously!? The first point may be up for debate but his “in any case” is a complete load. Christians MUST promote distinctively Christian doctrines and practices. Why should Christians withhold the moral force of the LAW (which is a blessing) from others. Does the Marxist in Chief hold back from pushing his doctrines and practices on all of America. I would argue that when Christians stopped promoting their values and doctrines the Marxists filled the vacuum.

Mel


3 posted on 08/15/2012 8:06:27 PM PDT by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong....)
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To: darrellmaurina

This is the fruit of the heresy which teaches that marriage is a contract when it is actually a sacrament.


4 posted on 08/15/2012 8:10:49 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: darrellmaurina
Those who try to avoid clear Biblical instruction tread on thin ground. The Bible is quite clear on this issue - it is an abomination which God hates.

One cannot read the Written Word (Genesis 2:24, Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Corinthians 7:2–16, 1 Timothy 1:9-10) and conclude that men can marry men and women can marry women without incurring the wrath of God. This is, unless you don't care about what God says.

5 posted on 08/15/2012 8:14:39 PM PDT by Ron C.
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To: achilles2000; melsec; wideawake; Ron C.; savagesusie; Ransomed; AnalogReigns; Jemian; ...
Wagglebee, a homosexual agenda ping is requested.

It is a very bad thing when a professor at a conservative Reformed seminary could even consider stating that he “could affirm domestic partnerships” for homosexuals. It is especially bad considering how much good Dr. Michael Horton has done for the church.

Dr. Horton is a well-known figure in Reformed circles. He was named to Christianity Today's list of 50 young evangelical “up and coming” theologians in 1996:

http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/1996/november11/6td20a.html

In addition to his teaching duties at Westminster Theological Seminary in California, he's editor of Modern Reformation and host of the White Horse Inn radio program. He's done a lot of good in the church world and is probably best known as the author of “Putting Amazing Back Into Grace” and numerous books critical of bad theology among evangelicals. He's also spent a lot of time building bridges between Reformed people and conservative Lutherans, especially those in the Missouri Synod. He believes, with good reason, that confessional conservatives need to work together to stem the flood of bad theology filling evangelical circles which too often denies the fundamentals of the faith.

His views on political engagement are not new, but his statements about homosexual domestic partnerships are very disappointing.

This is not an issue that should even be on the table for discussion. The least that can be said is it makes Westminster-West look bad and creates a PR problem. Perhaps more of a concern is that this “Two Kingdoms” theology is leading its adherents, step by step and perhaps too slowly for them to notice, into some very bad places.

Perhaps it's true that frogs don't jump out of boiling pots if they're heated slowly. It's the job of seminary professors to be more discerning than frogs.

For more details on this “Two Kingdoms” theology, in both its “Radical Two Kingdoms” (R2K) and more moderate and nuanced “Escondido Two Kingdoms” (Es2K) versions, read more here:

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2916768/posts

Kudos to Martin Snyder of the Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America for alerting me to this article on the White Horse Inn website; he's credited Mark Van Der Molen, an Indiana attorney and elder in the United Reformed Churches in North America, for alerting him to it.

Westminster Theological Seminary in California was begun in significant measure due to dissatisfaction by Christian Reformed conservatives in Southern California over problems at Calvin Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids. Years after the seminary began, the current president, Dr. W. Robert Godfrey, helped lead many of the larger west coast Christian Reformed congregations out of the CRC and into the URCNA. While the main issues in founding the URCNA were such things as the ordination of women, toleration of theistic evolution, and attacks on inerrancy, increasing demands for toleration of homosexuality in the CRC were on the list of complaints.

So far the Christian Reformed Church hasn't yet dropped off the homosexual cliff, and the URCNA isn't even close to that point. However, there are very uncomfortable parallels between Christian Reformed problems in the mid-1990s with homosexuality and this article on the White Horse Inn website.

Back in the 1990s, Calvin Theological Seminary dismissed a visiting professor from the Netherlands, Dr. Jan Veenhof, when it was discovered and reported in Christian Renewal that the professor had written an article advocating gay civil unions but not marriage.

Unlike Dr. Veenhof whose views were much worse, the rest of Dr. Horton's work makes clear that his views here are an aberration, not part of a broader pattern of support for homosexuality, and I have no desire whatsoever to get Dr. Horton terminated from Westminster-West.

What I do want is to call attention to the consequences of what has been called “Radical Two Kingdoms” theology and urge Dr. Horton to back off before it's too late. I'm fully aware that he opposes homosexual practice; the problem is that his views on political engagement are leading him into a political position which is virtually indistinguishable from that of theological liberals.

My coverage of the Dr. Jan Veenhof incident is here:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/reformed/archive96/nr96-122.txt

This got extensive media attention in the Grand Rapids Press, Detroit Free Press, and the Banner. Most of those articles aren't online, but here are some links to articles from the Calvin College Chimes which make clear this was a very big deal:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/961206/n1120696.htm

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/961206/e1120696.htm

Here is some more recent Grand Rapids Press coverage mentioning the earlier incident with Dr. Veenhof:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/08/calvin_college_has_had_to_conf.html

As CRC historian Dr. Robert Swierenga has written: “Relations with the GKN were further strained in 1996 when Calvin Theological Seminary released at mid-year visiting professor Jan Veenhof, a highly respected member of that denomination, who had written approvingly of faithful Christian homosexual couples. His controversial dismissal, together with the local crusading work of Jim Lucas, prompted the staff of Chimes, the Calvin College student newspaper, to devote its final spring 1997 issue to the topic of homosexuality at the college. The editors called for greater ‘understanding,’ ran an article by religion professor Philip Holtrop that noted the possibility of reading the Bible to allow for homosexual practices, and carried an ad for a college-sponsored gay and lesbian student discussion group ‘to provide a safe and accepting place on the Calvin campus.’”

http://www.swierenga.com/BurnWoodenShoesOrigPaper.html

It should be patently obvious that things aren't anywhere near that bad at Westminster-West. The question for Dr. Horton is not whether homosexuality is good or bad — unlike Dr. Veenhof, Dr. Horton makes clear he's opposed to homosexual practice, not just homosexual marriages — but rather what the state should do about something that the church opposes as a matter of biblical ethics. There are limits to the parallels with Veenhof, and also, for that matter, to the Peter Enns controversy over at Westminster-East.

Dr. Horton is an orthodox Bible-believing scholar. We must never forget that. He is a brother and deserves to be treated as such. People can have wrong views on politics without being heretics, and the main problem with Dr. Horton and the “Two Kingdoms” theology is that they fail to understand the importance of applying their conservative theology to politics.

However, I believe that if Westminster Seminary doesn't do something to at least indicate that these views are not representative of the rest of the faculty, Calvin Seminary professors will quite legitimately be asking some tough questions.

Why should they not claim that conservatives have a double standard for blaming Calvin Seminary for inviting a visiting professor who Calvin later got rid of after his views on homosexual domestic partnerships became known based on an article written in a foreign country in a foreign language, but nobody seems to have gotten very upset about a long-term Westminster-West professor who advocated very similar views publicly on the White Horse Inn right here in the United States?

I'm not a Calvin Seminary professor, obviously, but if I were one, I'd be saying some of the people who seceded from the Christian Reformed Church need to apologize to Calvin Seminary if they don't complain about this happening at Westminster-West.

8 posted on 08/16/2012 5:03:58 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: darrellmaurina; 185JHP; 230FMJ; AKA Elena; APatientMan; Albion Wilde; Aleighanne; ...
Moral Absolutes Ping!

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9 posted on 08/16/2012 5:14:28 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: darrellmaurina; AFA-Michigan; Abathar; Absolutely Nobama; Albion Wilde; AliVeritas; Antoninus; ...
Homosexual Agenda Ping

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10 posted on 08/16/2012 5:15:54 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: darrellmaurina; xzins; lightman; P-Marlowe
This situation has gotten totally out-of-hand.

The issue of same-sex "marriage" shouldn't even be the primary consideration for clergymen, the issue should be that homosexual behavior is inherently sinful.

Our Lord was quite explicit when He said, "Go and sin no more." Of course, He knew that we would continue to sin, but He wasn't validating the sin and He DID recognize that there are sinful acts that we can refrain from. Same-sex "marriage" or "unions" or "partnerships" or whatever else some would call it, explicitly validate the sin itself.

It's high time that Christians began to show homosexuals the same Christian charity that we show other sinners. We DO NOT "love them just the way they are." We love them "as He loves us" and that means we tell them the truth, the same way we would be truthful with an adulterer, a prostitute or someone who abuses their wife and children.

The homosexual's sinful behavior CAN be overcome, but only if they are told the truth.

11 posted on 08/16/2012 5:26:21 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: darrellmaurina

Dr. Horton wrote, “...I could affirm domestic partnerships as a way of protecting people’s legal and economic security.”

Truthfully I don’t have a problem with this provided it is not restricted to a relationship based on sex. For example a person might want to provide for a non family member who has been a live in caretaker for them.


23 posted on 08/16/2012 9:01:25 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: darrellmaurina
The author seems to have a superficial view
of the Holy WORD of G-d.

Throughout the Holy WORD of G-d, marriage is a metaphor
for the relationship of YHvH and his "called" people.
In the Tanach, YHvH is the Bridegroom and Israel is His Wife.
Later "called" gentiles are referred to a Bride.

A clear reading of Romans 1 in context beginning at
verse 16 shows that those who should know YHvH and his creation
but reject Him are given over to a perverse relationship in direct
opposition to the metaphor of marriage.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

29 posted on 08/16/2012 10:28:44 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: darrellmaurina; xzins; wagglebee; Dr. Eckleberg; blue-duncan
If you write, be respectful. Dr. Horton is an ordained minister and deserves to be treated with the respect due to his office

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34.

I disagree. If anything we should hold Dr. Horton to a MUCH HIGHER standard than we hold laymen and when an ORDAINED MINISTER falls off the wagon this far, he should be treated no better than we would treat anyone who would strive to pervert the gospel of Christ.

I had GREAT respect for Dr. Horton.

Perhaps I need to heed Acts 10:34 and be more wary of those who wear their collars backwards and who claim authority based on knowledge and the recognition of others by virtue of their degrees.

We need to call Dr. Horton on the carpet for this and we need not do it with kid gloves. He needs to know that by cow-towing to the homosexual agenda, he is perverting the gospel of Christ.

Dr. Horton has been a great source of theological wisdom to me in the past. I was quite shocked to see that he was the author of this tripe. Shame on him.

31 posted on 08/16/2012 10:56:50 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds.)
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To: darrellmaurina

I was not a Christian until i was well into my thirties but i did not like queers any better then than i do now, it is no more natural than a man or woman and a dog.

As far as law is concerned, Christians are no longer making the laws for this world to live by but i will vote against that sort of stuff as long as i have enough breath to go vote.


120 posted on 08/19/2012 9:39:00 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: darrellmaurina

Sorry, i goofed.


123 posted on 08/30/2012 9:35:14 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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