Posted on 08/17/2012 8:38:47 PM PDT by Frank Broom
There is a difference between prophetic language describing the “house of Israel” and practical language describing an individual.
The language used when referring to how something is a thorn in the side of a people (Israel), is the same sort of language used when God describes Israel as “playing the harlot” when seeking after false gods. This used to illustrate a point.
In the case of a person (such as Paul), there is no need for figurative language, since Paul IS a person. Paul on many occasions referenced the Judiazers and named names - why would he “code” a reference when he spoke if this issue directly in other places?
Remember the ORIGINAL issue/question is “Can God’s people suffer physical illness? Can bad things happen to God’s people? Will they be poor, or all massively rich?”
Is this then (the idea of claiming Paul did not have physical issues) back up that view?
Let me ask then, Why then did Paul have another write his letters in some cases, and then sign them, saying “see what big handwriting I use”, evidently due to his poor eyesight as he aged.
Want to argue that? If so, then why are the Health/Wealth preachers on TV wearing glasses in many cases? Why are they not healed of poor eyesight?
Health/Wealth/Word of Faith is ANOTHER Gospel — it’s not THE GOSPEL.
Those that sit on gold colored thrones and preach on TV and claim their followers are having their fillings in their teeth replaced with gold are false teachers. That is NOT the gospel.
No time right now, so just a quick reply to one thing. "Thorn in the flesh" IS figurative language. Obviously Paul did not have a real thorn sticking into his flesh. The question is what does the figure of speech mean. Scripture answers Scripture, and Paul was a Hebrew with Hebrew understanding, and the understanding of that figure of speech was that it meant people causing vexing, and problems, not a physical ailment.
Your other points can be addressed apart from the point about what "thorn in the flesh" clearly meant/means, as they are in other contexts.
What about Paul’s eyesight? Why was he not healed of that?
There is a page on the net written by a Catholic, that actually believes the same as you do concerning healing, but doesn't believe that Paul had a problem with his eyesight. It is an interesting page, grounded in The Word. If you care to read it, the net address is: http://www.northforest.org/BibleTopics/thorninflesh.html
A good Biblical page, dedicated to the proper study of the Bible, has a page around the scripture Philippians 3:12, which is, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if indeed I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.". I don't think it is a "Pentecostal" source, at all. It has expositories on the verse, under the different translations of the verse, that are interesting to read, and more in line with how you believe, but I glean understanding from them.
Paul had a calling to preach the Gospel to gentiles, which he was very single minded about. He received many revelations from God, which, thank God, were recorded in the letters he wrote, for our great benefit. When he wrote many things, he was writing as a prophet, who was conveying great and perfect understandings that he received directly from God. When he wrote other things, such as "but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.", he was writing as a human being, giving humanly advice to another person who he cared about. He was not writing in the mode of "thus sayeth The LORD".
I do not believe that Paul would ever want us to think that his words are meant to supersede the words of Christ Himself. Paul was the first one to admit that he was still learning and that he, as well as all of us, "see through a glass darkly". He also said, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if indeed I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.".
None of us may pertain unto the perfection of all that God has ordained for us to be, understand, and do, but that does not mean that Christ has not set the standard. We are to strive to be, understand, and do all that God has for us, even if we do fall short. Let us not lower the standard, which is Christ Himself, in order to make the Word of God more palatable for our feeble minds and hearts, but rather let us strive, with everything we are in Christ Jesus, to win the race, and live to the glory of God and His wonderful grace.
Grace means God's riches at Christ' expense. God's grace is poured out upon our lives as we seek to love Him and serve Him, yielding ourselves to Him, to do His will, even when it is not ours. He is willing to pour out His Holy Spirit through us. We should not be so afraid of failure, that we do not strive for all that God means for us to be in Christ.
We definitely do not want to be like the servant Christ called a wicked and slothful servant, because he was so afraid to use his talent to bring about profit, but out of fear he buried it. It is for the gutless, fearful servant that Christ spoke about as being contemptible. If we fall short, as all do, if we have really tried, it is still a good thing, and we will, in Christ, surely accomplish great things. There is no shame in falling short, but there is great shame in never, out of fear, trying. ______________________________________
Isaiah 64:4 For since the beginning of the world [men] have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, [what] he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
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1Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
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John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].
((The only qualification was "He that believeth on me". That person would not only do the same works as Christ, but greater. Why would they do them? Because He was going to His Father. This is because then the Holy Spirit would be poured out. He is still with The Father, and The Holy Spirit is still poured out in a special way through the Church. These things have not changed, so the words of Christ here, still apply to us.))
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John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for The Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
(("Because Jesus was not yet glorified"; again shows that this is what would make the difference. The Holy Spirit would only be poured out in such a way that He would flow from each of us as a river of living water, after Jesus was glorified. Jesus has been glorified, and The Holy Spirit is received by all who believe in Jesus. Now the question is, "How much will we believe in Jesus and what He actually said?" I mean really endeavor to believe what Jesus said, without excuse or fear. Yes, I fail, but I also try.))
Let’s look at Jesus.
How did he pray? What happened to him? Was he removed from his suffering?
Are we not called to pick up our own cross? Is this not what the original believers did? How did they fare? Did they become the richest, most successful, influential people? No they were persecuted and killed.
Did they simply not ask the right way in their prayers? I think not. They were true Christians, and would pray just as Christ did, Father, please if there is any other way, remove this cup from me, but if not, I will abide in you.
They did not pray for health and wealth for themselves - they prayed for the salvation of the lost! Just as Jesus did! I am no better - I too pray for myself over small inconsequential things that appear large in my eyes. But I keep reminding myself that we need to look on our circumstances through God’s eyes not our fleshly eyes.
God is not slack concerning his promises — but we need to keep in mind that refers to God’s promises, not our “Wish List”.
Yes, God does listen to (and answer) prayer. However, God is not a Galactic vending machine, that if we push the right buttons and say the right words, we get what we want.
All scripture is God-Breathed and useful for instruction, no matter the intent of the human agent who wrote it down. God has a way of using the circumstances and the writing to make it applicable to our lives.
Remember, we are called to follow Christ. To do that we MUST die to SELF and LIVE toward God. It does not seem wanting my current physical body to be healed constantly and live in this land of sin forever is dying to self.
We should be praying more for others than ourselves, and for souls rather than bodies and material goods!
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