Replies

D “Well, first of all, some here will get mad at me for stating the obvious, but the Bible is not all the inspired writings the Apostles had at there disposal, it references books of scripture which the bible does not contain.”

B “Yes, certainly it does. However, none of those books are the Gospel, which is what we are talking about. Furthermore, the Bible clearly tells us that the Gospel is all we need to hear for salvation’s sake, so let’s not get sidetracked with what stories and wisdom we might be missing out on from Enoch, or Jubilees. I’ve read those books mentioned which are still available (or the books we have which purport to be them, since some maybe pseudoepigraphical). They are good reading, and I’d recommend any Christian who is interested to check them out, but only after they had read the Gospel, and at least a good bit of the rest of the Bible, since that is where all the really important stuff is.”

IMHO, all the words of God are important

D “Third, In the Book of Ezekiel 37:15-19 it speaks of a book from the Jews (the Bible) and a book from the tribe of Joseph (the Book of Mormon):”

B “When Judah and Joseph are used in combination in the Bible, or any number of variations of that phrasing, it refers always to the tribes of Judah and the tribes of Israel, of which Joseph was the chief, which were divided into two kingdoms. Obviously the prophecy you cite is speaking of the rejoining of these divided tribes of God’s people, not anything to do with the Book of Mormon and the Bible. The usage of the stick as a metaphor also reinforces this, since a stick never represents a book in Biblical prophecy, but sticks, branches, trees, and plants are often used to represent people or groups of people in the Bible.”

Obviously... my interpretation differs, surprise! Just don’t say I have nothing to base it on, for I do.

Not gonna argue your interpretation, I also believe the Bible to be constructed so that multiple interpretations of the same scriptures are all correct, which is not to say that all interpretations are, but some times multiples are.

B “Yes, and he actually provided us with four independent witnesses in the four evangelists, so there could be no question that this was fulfilled. If that is not enough, he provided us with additional testimony from Paul and other apostles besides. I hardly see how the Book of Mormon is required after that point.”

Not up to you, God does things his way, and as you pointed out earlier, he sets things up so no one can credibly say He didn’t do it right (like not being fully man)

B “There is no prohibition about writing books, in fact the Bible commands all of us to witness. So any apostle or disciple alive at the time of that statement would still have been bound to tell their testimony, which would be a form of the Gospel. In fact, any time a Christian gives their own testimony of Christ, they are composing a form of Gospel themselves, in telling the good news in their own words. However, that doesn’t mean they are creating “another gospel”, separate from, and different than the Gospel which has been delivered to all Christians by God. The prohibition is against a different Gospel, which the Book of Mormon clearly is, since it is not in agreement with any of the other Gospels.”
Have you read and studied the Book of Mormon as I have? It is in agreement, in so far as it can be.

To illustrate, how exactly did Judas die? They all say he Died, but in different ways. It is impossible to agree with the bible on this point because you can agree with one, but not all the scriptures.

B “I suppose you could argue they forgot to name what, if your assertion is true, would be the most successful heresy, or perhaps the victorious Trinitarians edited the parts out of the Bible that specifically condemned them. However, that just goes back to dismissing the Bible as the Word of God, and being left with no sure footing to stand on when claiming that your prophet has the real Word of God.”
They did better than editing, the just didn’t include books that made it clear they were wrong in the Bible.

B “This whole idea that important parts of the Bible have been corrupted doesn’t even stand the test of reason, since the author of the Bible is God. You’re basically saying, without saying it explicitly, that God thought His message was important enough to deliver to man through chosen messengers over the ages, but then too lazy or incompetent to make sure that message wasn’t lost, mangled, and perverted by men. The Holy Spirit, in that scenario, would have to be asleep at the wheel, and of course when you think about it that way, the very notion is ludicrous and impossible if you believe in an almighty God.”
ere is the piece you are missing on that logic, God gave man Agency. God cannot interfere with Agency or he would break his word (and cease to be God) so he gave man his truth, and man beign imperfect corrupted it. But God knwe it would be corrupted, so he set up a way in the future for the truth to be restored.

God gets to assume the consequent :-)

B “There is a great passage in the Old Testament that I love, the story of King Josiah and the Book of the Law. Josiah ruled Judah during a period of decadence and idolatry, when they had forgotten the law and tossed away the Word of God. The King himself had never even read the books of Moses, until they found the copy that Moses sealed in the Ark of the Covenant, centuries earlier.”
Yup, he was prophesied about , and Josiah was a prophet as well as a king. see http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/1-kgs/13.1-3?lang=eng

B “That is the closest story in the entire Bible to a “restoration of the Gospel”, and what does it show us instead? God did not send a prophet to rewrite the Word of God, but instead he miraculously, through his own power and foresight, preserved the original books of Moses in their entirety and perfection, to deliver to Israel and remind them of their sins. Yet, you would have me believe that this same God allowed the Romans or whoever to butcher the testament that He sent his Son to deliver to us? Not my God, nosirree!”
Joseph did not rewrite the word of God, but miraculously through his power and foresight preserved the Book of Moroni in it’s entirety and perfection to deliver us from the evils of this day.

Or maybe Muhammad was made necessary, or Ellen G. White, or David Koresh. None of them have any more or less claim to the title than Joseph Smith, as far as I can tell. Well, maybe Koresh, since he tried to raise the dead and failed, so he pretty much blew it. The point is, anyone can come along and say “The Bible’s wrong, but God told me how to fix it”. None of them are named in the Bible, none of them were recognized as an Apostle by the other Apostles, which would be necessary to claim that authority, and none of them can perform any miracles, even though the Bible tells us that is not to be regarded as proof. It’s the word of a man, or other men testifying on behalf of that men, and that is all there is to support their claim, and all there will ever be.

God did not testify of their works, he did testify of the Book of Mormon.

B “The authority of the Word of God! When I ask you what recourse you have, when answering the claims of others who also claim to restore a corrupted gospel, I don’t mean to ask why you believe the Book of Mormon. I mean, to what can you appeal to prove to anyone that Smith’s claim is any more convincing than any of the other, pretty much countless, similar claims that have been made by others?”

Boogieman, The Bible can and will yet be twisted by men, you can’t stop it, and neither can I. I can pray and God can and will tell me what to believe and with him I cannot be deceived by man.

B “Now, my recourse is the Bible. I don’t have to tell anyone to read the Bible and pray about it to seek an answer, all I have to do is tell people to read the Bible, and, to the best of my ability, help explain it to them if they don’t understand something. The Bible is a sound, logical, self-proving document, one doesn’t need a confirmation in the spirit for one to know it is true.”
I’m happy that you think the bible is a complete work and that you can see nothing ore you need to do. I will not educate you in things that will make you sad.

B “Furthermore, the Bible is literally a living document, since the Bible is the Word and the Word is Christ, and Christ is the living God. Once you crack open the Bible, Christ is knocking at the door, you do not have to pray and ask for anything. The Word has the power to convict you in your conscience and humble you before God, simply by reading it. Most will flee from it, their consciences seared, but God’s sheep will hear His voice, because He calls out to them, He doesn’t wait for them to call out to Him.”
The Bible says to pray... so, IMHO you need to pray about it, not just read it.

B “You see, this is the difference I am talking about. God doesn’t tell just a few men that His Word is true, He tells all men.”
Yes, but he tells men in ways they can understand if they care to listen.
B “We can choose to listen, or we can choose to try to ignore him and do as we please.”
This eternal truth is Given that God will force no man to heaven - line from a hymn..

B “When I first read the Bible, I did not pray to God to ask if it was true, because I already knew in my heart what the answer would be, but I was struggling NOT to believe it. I strived against God and tried my utmost to ignore Him, but the power of His Word called me back again and again until I was subdued and humbled, and then I prayed for forgiveness.”
B “If I had instead read the Book of Mormon, I wouldn’t have prayed to ask if was true either, because I wouldn’t have wanted to believe. I’m blessed that God doesn’t take chances like that, depending on us asking for a sign from Him, and then deigning to bless only a few with the correct answer, otherwise I probably still be an atheist!”
There are many who don’t have to pray to recognize the word of God. I am glad you came to a knowledge of Jesus as your savior.

I do have to ask, if you found there was more to the Bible that had been translated form the dead sea scrolls, would you read it?

Delph

If Joseph Smith RETRANSLATED the 'bible', under direct command from GOD...

Let's compare GENESIS

King James Version

Genesis 50:24–26

²⁴And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
²⁵And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
²⁶So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.

.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Joseph Smith Translation

Genesis 50:24–38
24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die, and go unto my fathers; and I go down to my grave with joy. The God of my father Jacob be with you, to deliver you out of affliction in the days of your bondage; for the Lord hath visited me, and I have obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of my loins, the Lord God will raise up a righteous branch out of my loins; and unto thee, whom my father Jacob hath named Israel, a prophet; (not the Messiah who is called Shilo;) and this prophet shall deliver my people out of Egypt in the days of thy bondage.
25 And it shall come to pass that they shall be scattered again; and a branch shall be broken off, and shall be carried into a far country; nevertheless they shall be remembered in the covenants of the Lord, when the Messiah cometh; for he shall be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the Spirit of power; and shall bring them out of darkness into light; out of hidden darkness, and out of captivity unto freedom.
26 A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins.
27 Thus saith the Lord God of my fathers unto me, A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren.
28 And he shall bring them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers; and he shall do whatsoever work I shall command him.
29 And I will make him great in mine eyes, for he shall do my work; and he shall be great like unto him whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel, out of the land of Egypt; for a seer will I raise up to deliver my people out of the land of Egypt; and he shall be called Moses. And by this name he shall know that he is of thy house; for he shall be nursed by the king’s daughter, and shall be called her son.
30 And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins; and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days;
31 Wherefore the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines, and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to a knowledge of their fathers in the latter days; and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
32 And out of weakness shall he be made strong, in that day when my work shall go forth among all my people, which shall restore them, who are of the house of Israel, in the last days.
33 And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.
34 And the Lord sware unto Joseph that he would preserve his seed forever, saying, I will raise up Moses, and a rod shall be in his hand, and he shall gather together my people, and he shall lead them as a flock, and he shall smite the waters of the Red Sea with his rod.
35 And he shall have judgment, and shall write the word of the Lord. And he shall not speak many words, for I will write unto him my law by the finger of mine own hand. And I will make a spokesman for him, and his name shall be called Aaron.
36 And it shall be done unto thee in the last days also, even as I have sworn. Therefore, Joseph said unto his brethren, God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land, unto the land which he sware unto Abraham, and unto Isaac, and to Jacob.
37 And Joseph confirmed many other things unto his brethren, and took an oath of the children of Israel, saying unto them, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
38 So Joseph died when he was an hundred and ten years old; and they embalmed him, and they put him in a coffin in Egypt; and he was kept from burial by the children of Israel, that he might be carried up and laid in the sepulchre with his father. And thus they remembered the oath which they sware unto him.

If Joseph Smith RETRANSLATED the 'bible', under direct command from GOD...

Let's compare KJV to JST:

King James Version

John 1

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2. The same was in the beginning with God.

3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

19. And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20. And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

21. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

22. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23. He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

24. And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25. And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

26. John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

27. He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

28. These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

32. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Joseph Smith Translation

John 1
1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.

4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;

5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came into the world for a witness, to bear witness of the light, to bear record of the gospel through the Son, unto all, that through him men might believe.

8 He was not that light, but came to bear witness of that light,

9 Which was the true light, which lighteth every man who cometh into the world;

10 Even the Son of God. He who was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God; only to them who believe on his name.

13 He was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John bear witness of him, and cried, saying, This is he of whom I spake; He who cometh after me, is preferred before me; for he was before me.

16 For in the beginning was the Word, even the Son, who is made flesh, and sent unto us by the will of the Father, And as many as believe on his name shall receive of his fulness. And of his fullness have all we received, even immortality and eternal life, through his grace.

17 For the law was given through Moses, but life and truth came through Jesus Christ.

18 For the law was after a carnal commandment, to the administration of death; but the gospel was after the power of an endless life, through Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father.

19 And no man hath seen God at any time, except he hath borne record of the Son; for except it is through him no man can be saved.

20 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem, to ask him; Who art thou?

21 And he confessed, and denied not that he was Elias; but confessed, saying; I am not the Christ.

22 And they asked him, saying; How then art thou Elias? And he said, I am not that Elias who was to restore all things. And they asked him, saying, Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

23 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

24 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as saith the prophet Esaias.
25 And they who were sent were of the Pharisees.

26 And they asked him, and said unto him; Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not the Christ, nor Elias who was to restore all things, neither that prophet?

27 John answered them, saying; I baptize with water, but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
28 He it is of whom I bear record. He is that prophet, even Elias, who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose, or whose place I am not able to fill; for he shall baptize, not only with water, but with fire, and with the Holy Ghost.

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and said; Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world!

30 And John bare record of him unto the people, saying, This is he of whom I said; After me cometh a man who is preferred before me; for he was before me, and I knew him, and that he should be made manifest to Israel; therefore am I come baptizing with water.

31 And John bare record, saying; When he was baptized of me, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

32 And I knew him; for he who sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me; Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
33 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

34 These things were done in Bethabara, beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

“IMHO, all the words of God are important”

Sure, they are all important, but I don’t think they are all of equal priority. For example, if I only have one day to study the Bible with someone who is terminally ill, I’m not going to start with some genealogies from the book of Kings, I’m going to start with the Gospel.

“Obviously... my interpretation differs, surprise! Just don’t say I have nothing to base it on, for I do.”

Well, you really don’t have much to base the interpretation on, except for the words of Joseph Smith, or whatever other LDS figure came up with that interpretation. Anyone can propose a meaning to words in the Bible, saying “Judah means the Old Testament and Joseph means the New Testament”, for example. I could just as easily say “Judah means Pizza and Joseph means Chicken Wings”, but that’s no sound basis for hermeneutics.

If you want it to be a reasonable interpretation, it has to be based on reasonable rules. For example, if the meaning is inferred from the context, or defined in another passage, or derived from usage of similar metaphors whose meaning is clearly understood. You can’t appeal to any of those methods in this instance, because they would all contradict your interpretation.

“Not up to you, God does things his way, and as you pointed out earlier, he sets things up so no one can credibly say He didn’t do it right (like not being fully man)”

You are the one who offered the multiple witness requirement as showing a need for the BoM. I’ve simply shown that the requirement was more than fulfilled by the New Testament books alone.

“Have you read and studied the Book of Mormon as I have? It is in agreement, in so far as it can be.”

I’ve read most of it, more than a casual skimming, but not in its entirety. I really don’t need to study it deeply to say it’s not in agreement with the other Gospels, though. The other Gospels tell me that Christ died, rose again on the third day, spent forty days on Earth after that, then ascended to Heaven, where He sits at the right hand of God until the end of days. The BoM tells me that Jesus flits around the Earth visiting people to deliver his message personally, instead of reigning in Heaven with the Father until the appointed time.

If I was going to make it my full-time mission to try and minister to Mormons, then I’d probably study the whole book to find more contradictions, but that one is big enough for me to know what I need to know for my own purposes.

“To illustrate, how exactly did Judas die? They all say he Died, but in different ways. It is impossible to agree with the bible on this point because you can agree with one, but not all the scriptures.”

They’re not in direct contradiction, but only apparent contradiction, since there are multiple ways the verses can be read without contradiction. So, if you want to see a contradiction, then you will, but only if you are ignoring the alternative explanations.

“They did better than editing, the just didn’t include books that made it clear they were wrong in the Bible.”

How convenient. Well, if the canon is invalid, then you’ve thrown the door open to every other pseudochristian book that was excluded as well. Why shouldn’t I then believe in the Gnostic Jesus? There are books that say he is the real one and all the people who deny it are wrong.

“God cannot interfere with Agency or he would break his word (and cease to be God) so he gave man his truth, and man beign imperfect corrupted it. But God knwe it would be corrupted, so he set up a way in the future for the truth to be restored.”

Yet, God doesn’t need to interfere with Agency in order to preserve His Word faithfully. I gave you one example already, King Josiah and the Book of the Law, where He did just that. Every time we discover an ancient manuscript of the Bible that has survived the ages, we have another example. For all we know, the original writings of the New Testament are all collected and buried in some rubble under an apartment building in Turkey, waiting for us to find them.

Another point to note, is that God can influence us without interfering with Agency. For example, giving us His Word infuences us, giving us commandments that we can choose to follow or not follow influences us, and the witnessing of His believers also influences us, all without interfering with Agency in the least. So, it’s not unreasonable to think that God can use His influence to preserve His Word, especially when there are direct references to that in the Bible (commandments to make no alterations, to transmit faithfully, to not accept different doctrines, etc).

“Joseph did not rewrite the word of God, but miraculously through his power and foresight preserved the Book of Moroni in it’s entirety and perfection to deliver us from the evils of this day.”

Well, the claim is that Smith “restored the Gospel”. Obviously, the implication is that something in the existing Gospel was removed or changed, requiring a restoration. When that was the case in the Old Testament, with the books of Moses, God did not tell Josiah where to find another book, or to call his scribes so he could dictate a new book. Instead, God miraculously preserved the same Word that He had given to Moses, and delivered it to Josiah. If the analogous had happened with regards to Joseph Smith, then the Angel Moroni would have delivered to him the original manuscripts of the Gospels, not a new gospel that nobody had ever heard of before.

“God did not testify of their works, he did testify of the Book of Mormon.”

Well, by the standard you use, God did testify just as much of Muhammad as he did the Book of Mormon. The Muslims do exactly as you did with your prophecy example, they take an existing Biblical prophecy, and say it refers to Muhammad, even though that interpretation violates all hermeneutics and nobody but themselves believes that interpretation to be correct. They use the prophecy of the comforter, and just say the comforter is Muhammad. Prove them wrong :P

“Boogieman, The Bible can and will yet be twisted by men, you can’t stop it, and neither can I. I can pray and God can and will tell me what to believe and with him I cannot be deceived by man.”

Sure, you can pray, and God may tell you what to believe, or He may not. People can believe that they are praying to God, when they are not, and they can be deceived in their hearts. Don’t you think the billions of people on the planet praying to false gods feel, in their heart, that their deities are true, and that they aren’t deceived?

Relying on emotion is fraught with hazard because human judgment and reason are clouded by emotion. The very word “emotional” can be used as a antonym to “rational” because of this effect. We all know this danger, because we see it anytime we are arguing with a liberal, who refuses to see facts or contradictions because they are basing their beliefs on feelings. Sometimes, we don’t see that the exact same danger is present when it comes to matters of religion, but it is there.

“The Bible says to pray... so, IMHO you need to pray about it, not just read it.”

Well, I do pray, but I’m just saying that I didn’t pray to find out if the Bible was true when I was first reading it, since I didn’t believe in God at that time, nor did I want to believe the Bible was true. Why would I pray when I didn’t believe prayer held any power? I would have just seen it as talking to myself.

“I do have to ask, if you found there was more to the Bible that had been translated form the dead sea scrolls, would you read it?”

Yes, sure. I have actually read the Dead Sea Scrolls, along with plenty of other apocrypha, pseudoepigraphia, and the like. Heck, I’ve even read David Koresh’s book.