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To: HarleyD
I fully understand that we are grafted into Israel. Paul explains it very well in Eph 2 & Rm 11, so it puzzles me that the ‘church’ considers itself separate from Judah as Judah is but one tribe of Israel in which Messiah is the head of Israel, all of Jabob. (see Isa 49:1-6)

Paul also states in Eph 2:11-22 that once we confess Yeshua as Messiah, we are no longer gentiles, but fellow citizens of Israel and partakeers of ALL the covenantS of promise that were made from the beginning. We are equal heirs amd sons and daughters of the house of God.

The term ‘gentile(s)/nation(s)s’ simply means one is who not of God’s covenant, old or new, so this also puzzles me as to why the ‘church’ still considers itself Israel,other than the fact that the early church fathers were anti0semetic and hated everything Jewish because it did not fit their plan of growth for the church.

So if we are sons and daughters and are to be working on being transformed to look like the Son according to the path given through Moses, why are we taught from the ‘church’ doctrines and traditions to reject everything that defines what a son or daughter is to look like and act like?

31 posted on 01/19/2013 5:50:08 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin
...why the ‘church’ still considers itself Israel,other than the fact that the early church fathers were anti0semetic and hated everything Jewish because it did not fit their plan of growth for the church.

I'm not sure where you got your information (although this view does circulate among Catholics in particular). The early fathers were in fact Jewish fathers. These include Peter, James, John, Paul, etc. The first council (the Jerusalem Council) was comprised of Jewish fathers. When Protestants tried to figured out which books of scriptures were suppose to be included in the inerrant word of God, they went back to the Hebrew fathers for guidance. The idea that the earlier Gentile fathers were anti-semetics is nonsense. This comes from dispensationalists who attempt to discredit the idea that Gentiles have been grafted into Israel as is plainly stated in Romans 9. This is something early Gentile fathers taught as well as Paul.

Why does the church consider itself Israel? I can give you my understanding. The Israel of the scripture is a physical type for the spiritual church. It shows to the spiritual church all the good blessing of God as well as the consequences of sin. Part of Jewish believers (a remnant) made up Israel as well as Gentile believers (e.g. Caleb, Ruth, Rahab, etc.). This has been merged by God into the true Israel-the church, although there are still unbelievers (tares) within the framework of the church. It is not perfect-yet.

I believe the Old Testament to be woefully overlooked by today's church. These aren't "moral" stories but actual practice of living given to us by God. The OT acts of living are the doctrines of the NT put into the context of a living world. There are parallels between the physical Israel of yesteryear and the spiritual Israel of today.

why are we taught from the ‘church’ doctrines and traditions to reject everything that defines what a son or daughter is to look like and act like?

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you state that we are to reject everything that defines what a son or daughter should act like. And certainly most of the Protestants on this board would not agree that we are taught from "church" doctrines. We are constantly arguing about "sola scriptura" (scripture alone).

How we should act is laid out in scripture. Do justice. Love kindness. Walk humbly with God. Love God. Love one another. This is what defines us as sons/daughters of God. These are doctrinal values of the New Testament. How they are applied in the context of the living world can be found in the Old.

36 posted on 01/20/2013 3:25:49 AM PST by HarleyD
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