Posted on 02/22/2013 5:43:18 PM PST by NYer
I am going to assume that you pinged me informationally rather than requiring that I answer GeronL's post (from what I can gather) at #57. I am certainly willing to respond to it nonetheless. I suspect that this was between you and wintertime. I created a lengthy and reasonably scholarly response to GeronL and old fumblefingers (moi) managed to lose the entire post AS I tried to post it. I will recreate it in shorter form and ping you. I also don't really think that ANY competent education (public, private, homeschool, whatever) teaches that ANY emperor or other secular leader "crowned himself" pope EVER.
wintertime:
I don't presume to give you a hard time for being IIRC an EX-Catholic. The United States of America is still somewhat a free country, thank God, and your choices are your choices. OTOH, it is not really necessary to re-fight the Thirty Years' War at every opportunity. This IS a conservative website and we are a lot better off being able to ally with one another across denominational lines than helping the left by unnecessarily wrasslin' with one another.
GeronL:
My reconstructed response to your #57 is coming soon. I usually agree with you on virtually everything OTHER than our respective flavors of Christianity.
No problem, the Holy Spirit trumps that for us true Christians.
Just in case that went over your head, nothing you typed pertains to me or any other born again Christian with a personal relationship with Jesus.
You are trying too hard, relax and let Jesus infuse Himself with you and you with Him.
You don't have to make Christians look bad in order to make Catholicism look good. Or maybe you do.
Don't worry student, I will not do your homework
Remember: three pages, single spaced.
I only respond to posts, and not often, that seem to attack protestantism. I have no real beef with Catholics, heck we are on the same side almost all the time.
Hold on here, what you want is "Renaissance," keywords "countless - numbers - dead - Christians," -- but let me explain.
The "Dark Ages" was when the monks, especially, were copying literature, re-establishing agriculture, saving civilization, and converting Huns, Goths, Vikings and Vandals.
The "Middle Ages" was when the Catholics were into founding cities, building cathedrals, starting universities, and trying to liberate the historic Christian heartland (Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Odessa) from hostile Muslims. Also 60% of the population died off from the Black Plague.
The "Renaissance" --- here's what you're looking for --- was when you had the European Wars of Religion (Link), featuring battles, executions and massacres of Anglicans vs Catholics, Lutherans vs Catholics, Puritans vs Anglicans, Anabaptists vs Lutherans, Calvinists vs Anabaptists, and altogether hundreds of thousands of dead Christians splattered across hundreds of murderous principalities over the course of over 150 years.
This horror-show contributed, in no small measure, to a persistent revulsion against religion in Europe, the "Enlightenment" and eventually the French Revolution and on to the "Modern Age," a.k.a. the Age of Murder.
My own evaluation of it is: these people imposed a present hell on each other in a thoroughly inter-churchy multi-denominational way here, and got their recompense from a just God in the hereafter.
As an image of how Christians ought to relate, I prefer what Paul said (tagline).
Tagline for you.
You gotta be kidding me!!!!! We're talking about what the God of creation said to his Creation and you are being so flippant about adding to or taking away from what God says??? I'll bet you wouldn't dare misquote your pope though...
Wow nice light hearted gloss over of facts of murdered Christians by the Catholic church.
Those things should be taken seriously.
Like others here, it seems the talking points are to ignore what Catholics did wrong and bring up others that did bad things too.
Kinda like the kid who wants to not get in trouble for throwing rocks by saying Oh Bobby threw a dirt clod.
I personally try to post informative threads, and look for FReepers who will reciprocate interest with interest, respect with respect, prayer with prayer.
If the Orthodox brethren have not been baited, it may be because they refuse to be baited: in which case, my hat's off to them.
Tagline to all who serve Our Lord.
1 through the lemniscate
It is a historical fact that the Catholic Church persecuted other Christians who refused to give allegiance to the Pope of Rome.Amen sister.
They justified their actions by citing such proclamations as those of Pope Boniface in his Unam Sanctum and so-called "heretics" were persecuted and prosecuted - some even executed - based solely on their refusal to be subject to the Pope.It sure seemed as though this teaching was incontrovertible back then, but now they say it was just a misunderstanding and he really didn't mean it the way it sounded.
Peoples' LIVES were at stake here!
It is stuff like this that convinces me that the Roman Catholic Church cannot possibly be THE one, true church.
It is patently obvious that Jesus was speaking of a spiritual body and not an institution whose claim to fame is longevity.
If what they teach is NOT verified by the sole, objective authority we have - the Word of God - then they are no more authentic than any other religion is.
Could you post a link to one?
Thanks.
Nothing flippant. It’s simply a response to the nonsense that you claim to refute what was said earlier. We believe that not everything the Christ said was recorded. To which you responded, that you were referring to His words not actions suggesting that all His words were written.
What was pointed out to you was the sheer absurdity of this proposition because it suggests that Christ remained speechless when He performed a vast array of acts. (John: 21: 25) Obviously since this cannot be the case, it proves the point that not everything the Christ said was written. This is why Peter and his successors were entrusted with teaching ONE TRUTH, not a multitude of interpretations that have been spawned since the schism. The Church as the rock, is founded on scripture, tradition as handed down by the successors of St. Peter, revelation, and experience and has become the mustard tree that now covers all corners of the world.
For failure to consider context, that would be you...
I pointed directly towards how gnosticism was dealt with early on. They did not allude to things Christ did (or said) not part of the record. For whatever reason, that was ignored by yourself, with the focus of the exchange steered towards fill-in-the-blank word games (concerning what Christ MAY have said that wasn't recorded)
I recognize that as a camel's nose under the edge of the tent sort-of-thing, as did the one whom first responded to you here concerning it, along with another having taken pains to provide wider context.
When after that having been pointed out, have one in effect say "what nose?, what camel?" it's then plain enough from that display of incoherence, the rest of the conversation will be incoherent, for it will focus on everything BUT that camel.
I missed nothing...the Eastern schism was very bad but not a disaster because both sides, East and West agree on ALL the major precepts of the church...the basic desagreement is on the role of the leader and who he is....You have not studied history or you would never make the claim that Rome claims ANYTHING that is untrue....in fact it is now time
you have to be kidding....Jesus was a human being and He said zillions of things that were not recorded...He didn't even know the apostles until He was an adult. How many wonderful things must He have said to His parents, relatives, friends, that we will never get to hear. Maybe one of His boyhood friends fell and was injured...perhaps Jesus wiped away the injury and comforted His friend.....they were ten years old, chances are that it didn't make the big book. For you, or anyone, to claim that everything that Jesus said was somehow recorded is nonsense!!!
a strange comment indeed....Catholicism is Christianity.
if you care to follow some lesser "denomination" so be it, but whatever it is, it is NOT full Christianity.
there can only be one true Christian Church on Earth....there is, and it is Catholicism. All other denominations are indeed Christian, but not FULLY Christian. Close doesn't count, they fell away from the true Christian church and became outsiders looking in....not wrong, not evil, just incomplete.
my previous post was somehow cut short...please point out, for we who are not historians, what Rome claims that is in error historically....ANYTHING WILL HELP !!
We are not talking here about camels or noses. Quite simply, there are MANY things that Christ said and did that are not part of recorded Scripture. They were handed down by what we have come to know as the oral tradition from Peter and his apostles to his successors the Popes may of whom were the early Church Fathers and saints of the Church. This is the received tradition of Holy Scripture along with revelation that is the true deposit of the faith. There cannot be multiples truths. If that were so every street corner pastor in every FourSquare Church would claim to be to be teaching the Gospel of our Lord including Joel Osteen, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the Mormons, the Church of Scientology...you get the point. This is why great thinkers, philosophers, scientists, essayists like GK Chesterton, including atheists and a former Chief Rabbi of Rome all converted to Catholicism. That the current Pope has been called the Theological Einstein of our times simply adds an exclamation point to all of this who has famously said that faith and reason are braided together to make for the compelling witness to Truth contained in the Catholic Credo. “The One True, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church...” The Church for the ages where the gates of hell shall not prevail against Her.
I’m not on FR too much, but if you are, how about being the change you’d like to see? Next time you see a thread that seems designed to provoke confrontation, why not refuse the bait and instead objectively point out the problem? Point out what prevents a charitable discussion and see if anyone will join you in talking over facts instead of trading insults. I would! I’m much more attracted to fruits of the Holy Spirit than sour apples :) Just my 2 cents worth.
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