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In Defense of the Papacy: 9 Reasons True Christians Follow the Pope
stpeterslist ^ | February 21, 2013 | HHAMBROSE

Posted on 02/22/2013 5:43:18 PM PST by NYer

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To: Steelfish

Salvation is already complete though, at this point. It was completed on the cross, once and for all time. Christ returns next time, not to bring salvation, but to bring the sword.


451 posted on 02/28/2013 10:34:04 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: boatbums
Why would you accept the authority of group of followers of Jesus,

• "On this Rock, I will build my Church." --Jesus

Do you agree that Jesus founded a church, His Church?

• "the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."

Do you agree that Jesus' Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth?"

• "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Do you believe that if someone refuses to listen to Christ's Church, that he should be treated as an unbeliever?

Do you agree that Christ's Church is visible? If not, how are we to take our disputes to Christ's invisible Church? Was His command nonsensical?

Do you believe that Christ's Church has the final authority in determining the canon of Scripture? Or did Martin Luther, who isn't mentioned in Scripture? Or a gathering of Jews, around 90 A.D., about 60 years after Pentacost?

400 years after the last book of the Old Covenant was written, to dictate to the Jews (to whom belong the Oracles of God) what "their" sacred writings should contain?

You know that "the Jews" were not a monolithic group, and that various groups held various canons of Scripture, even at the time of "the council of Jamnia," which was simply a local group of Jews, who had no authority, even within Judaism.

Old Testament Canon

When you consider Luther's motivation and actions, that he originally sought to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the New Testament, because these books contained passages which contradicted his doctrines, particularly his doctrine of "faith alone," it is obvious that he wanted to remove the books of Maccabees from the Old Testament because 2 Maccabees (2 Maccabees 12:43-46) contradicted his rejection of Purgatory.

452 posted on 03/01/2013 4:20:57 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: boatbums; terycarl

Yes, I’m still waiting to see if he is going to put his money where his mouth is and defend some actual proclamations, instead of just making blanket declarations. If they are all 100% correct, then it should be easy enough to say that the church encouraging violence and persecution against heretics is a-okay and Holy Spirit-inspired.


453 posted on 03/01/2013 7:18:38 AM PST by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman; All

But that’s YOUR interpretation of Scripture. David Koresh, Joel Osteen, “Bishop” TD Jake, Rev. Wright; Rev. Sharpton, and pro-gay and lesbian marriage Lutherans plus 35,000 other “Christian” denominations all have THEIR view of Scripture.

We can’t have infinite number of TRUTHS. There is but One Christ, a One Truth given to His Apostles and their successors as taught by One Church until the end of time.


454 posted on 03/01/2013 9:16:51 AM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: Steelfish

It’s not Biblical interpretation, it’s Biblical teaching. I am not saying, “hey the Olive tree represents this or that”. I am just paraphrasing what the Apostles wrote in plain language, which is unmistakeable. Even Christ himself said “It is finished” with his last breath.

If you don’t feel Christ’s death on the cross was a perfect enough payment to cover the wages of sin, for anyone, for all time, then I feel sorry for you and I hope God opens your eyes.


455 posted on 03/01/2013 12:47:44 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman; All

We can go on forever about the interpretation of Christ’s death. It sure opened the door to salvation to all of us but that doesn’t mean we get a free pass. This brings us back to the initial proposition, namely the authentic teachings of Christ as reflected not only in scripture, but in all what was handed down to the Apostles and their successors including those acts that were recorded and those that were not, what Christ said that was written and what was not written. Scripture alone won’t cut it. This is why in establishing His Church on earth He entrusted to Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. “Whatsoever thou shall bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatsoever thou shall loosen on earth, shall be loosened in Heaven.”

And again we revert to the threshold question. Whose interpretation of Scripture, revelation, and tradition do we accept? You have on one hand the Catholic Church and on the other hand some 35, 000 other Christian denominations including the likes of Joel Osteen; “Bishop” TD Jake; Rev. Sharpton; Rev. Wright; David Koresh; Rev. Jim Jones; or gay and lesbian ordinations of Christian bishops like Lutherans, Episcopalians, and Anglicans or simply trust you own interpretation and judgment like what the Gnostics tried to do? To ask this question is to answer it.


456 posted on 03/01/2013 7:34:17 PM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
• "On this Rock, I will build my Church." --Jesus
Do you agree that Jesus founded a church, His Church?

Yes, Jesus established His body, called a "church" or called-out assembly, also it is the Bride of Christ. It was a "spiritual" house per Peter so it cannot mean it is restricted to a single organization/institution that imagines it alone can lay claim or copyright the name "Christians".

• "the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
Do you agree that Jesus' Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth?"

It most certainly SHOULD be where the truth Jesus taught is found. But no matter what a group calls itself, if it ceases to be the upholder of the truth, it ceases to be "a" church of the living God. That doesn't mean other local assemblies cannot continue to be the upholder of the truth. I think where Catholics get tripped up is when they read that the church is the "pillar and foundation of the truth", they believe it means THEIR church determines what is the truth. That is not what the verse says nor the context of the other verses. There IS truth, and a Christian church is to be a supporter and announcer of that truth. They don't have the authority to MAKE truth.

• "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
Do you believe that if someone refuses to listen to Christ's Church, that he should be treated as an unbeliever?

Since this passage is speaking about a complaint between two believers and one has wronged the other, the wronged brother should make every effort to settle the matter between him and his brother. If the person refuses to correct his wrong action, the offended brother is told to bring two other members with him to face the offender to try to get him to repent of his wrong. It is ONLY then, that the matter is to be taken to the church (their mutual local congregation) in an effort to correct the offense. Obviously, this sounds like way more than a minor issue if it gets to this point. But, if the members of the church are unable to get the brother to correct his wrong action, they are to expel him from their fellowship. That's just what it says. Paul wasn't talking about hauling someone off to Rome to get them involved in it. To presume that is what Paul meant is ignorant of history seeing as there only WERE local assemblies. While the Apostles were still alive, disputes such as concerned ALL the young churches, such as whether or not the Gentiles had to be circumcised, were dealt with at the founding city of the faith, Jerusalem, and it is there that James settled the matter Paul brought to them. I don't, however, think this implies that ALL matters, large or small, must go to a central, overarching authority to decide matters of local interest. We have Paul's instructions for that. Also, treating someone like a "tax collector" or unbeliever only means they don't let the guy keep worshiping with them and being associated with their ministry, it doesn't mean they stop trying to win him back to the fellowship or quit loving him and reaching out to him.

Do you agree that Christ's Church is visible? If not, how are we to take our disputes to Christ's invisible Church? Was His command nonsensical?

Christ's church is obviously, or should be, a visible one, but it is also a spiritual house, per Peter. It is a body of believers and as the faith community grew, so did the different local churches. They should ALL be visibly the upholders of the truth as Jesus taught it, though. So, there is no ONE church, as if the only legitimate one is called by a specific title or sign on a door. Every believer is a member of Christ's body, his church, his bride, regardless of where they choose to worship. He knows His sheep and they know Him and follow Him. A false shepherd they will not follow. That's how you can tell the difference.

Do you believe that Christ's Church has the final authority in determining the canon of Scripture? Or did Martin Luther, who isn't mentioned in Scripture? Or a gathering of Jews, around 90 A.D., about 60 years after Pentecost?

Again, the "canon" was man's attempt to compile all the sacred books into one volume. At one time, each book was on its own scroll. Then recording processes change and codices were used (looks more like a book). The Jewish people always accepted the Torah, because they believed it came directly from God to Moses. As time went on, various prophets of God wrote down their prophecies received by the Holy Spirit. Various leaders wrote down the activities and actions of the Jewish people in what are called chronicles and they recorded the actions of the different kings and judges God set up among them. In the book of Deuteronomy (one written by Moses), God gave quite specific instructions for how the people would be able to tell the difference between true and false prophets. If what they predicted would happen, happened as they said it would AND they did not try to lead them to worship false gods, then that was a prophet of Jehovah. If the person who claimed to be God's prophet predicted something and it did not happen OR they tried to lead them to worship false gods, then they were NOT Jehovah's prophets AND they were to be executed. So, that tells me both the Jews and God were pretty respectful of the role of the prophets. It is no surprise that their words were recorded in sacred Scripture. There were major and minor prophets, but God showed them who they were to listen to as he also proved to them that he was the true God since only God could foretell the future exactly as he had done.

It was up to the church of believers to receive the writings passed down to them from the Apostles or their direct disciples and we have no reason to believe that they excluded the Old Testament seeing as Jesus and the New Testament writers quoted directly from nearly every one of the books in the Old Testament using words such as, "it is written", "thus sayeth the Lord", and so forth. They recognized what was and wasn't considered sacred Scripture which tells me that there already WAS an understanding and recognition of the body of writings we call the Bible. The Temple had every scroll of every book in it as did most of the local synagogues. They revered the writings as from God just as we Christians should today, because they ARE from God.

I said: 400 years after the last book of the Old Covenant was written, to dictate to the Jews (to whom belong the Oracles of God) what "their" sacred writings should contain?

You asked: You know that "the Jews" were not a monolithic group, and that various groups held various canons of Scripture, even at the time of "the council of Jamnia," which was simply a local group of Jews, who had no authority, even within Judaism.

Not sure what you mean by they were not a "monolithic group". If you mean they were not all of one tribe, then, yeah, we know they were twelve tribes all from Jacob who was the son of Isaac who was the son of Abraham. Under the leadership of Moses, they were a single "group" and they entered the Promised Land as a group. As years went by, they split off but they never stopped being the people of God. Again, he knows his own and all the promises God made to Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob (Israel, Prince of God) and to Moses he WILL fulfill. Many prophecies are yet to be fulfilled but God is faithful and He will keep his promises.

When you consider Luther's motivation and actions, that he originally sought to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the New Testament, because these books contained passages which contradicted his doctrines, particularly his doctrine of "faith alone," it is obvious that he wanted to remove the books of Maccabees from the Old Testament because 2 Maccabees (2 Maccabees 12:43-46) contradicted his rejection of Purgatory.

I really don't care what Luther's motivations were. He translated the entire Bible into the German vernacular. He even translated all those books you accuse him of omitting. He never removed any books. As for the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books, he was hardly alone in viewing them as uninspired works. He was not the first to place them in a separate section from the mutually recognized inspired writings. Rather than question why Luther would do that for ALL of those seven books and not just the one you say he disagreed with, you should ask what motivated those at the Council of Trent to include them with the other inspired writings AS equally inspired. They had NOT done that prior. There were several high-ranking bishops there who also rejected these books being placed in the Old Testament canon. My question to you is what right they had to decide what was God-breathed Scripture and to mandate to the Jews what belonged in THEIR canon of the Old Testament. Unto them was the Oracles of God, Paul stated, so I seriously doubt he would have approved of Christians 1500 years later placing books that were NOT divinely-inspired along with those that were universally recognized AS from God. I do not give them that right. If Catholics want to read these books and think they came from God, go for it, just don't demand that every other Christian must also accept them. They do not hold a candle to those books that did come from God. He doesn't make mistakes.

And, just one more thought about that passage in Maccabees. How can anyone possibly think it is talking about there being a place called Purgatory from that? The men that were prayed for were idol worshipers! Wouldn't that be a mortal sin in Catholic thinking and wouldn't these men have gone to hell rather than Purgatory? Anyway, I think it is extremely shallow reasoning to base such a dogma on this passage and even less reason to think this was the only reason Luther and many before and after him rejected those books as inspired and sacred.

Thanks for the conversation. Have a blessed weekend.

457 posted on 03/01/2013 10:18:08 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Steelfish; Boogieman
And again we revert to the threshold question. Whose interpretation of Scripture, revelation, and tradition do we accept? You have on one hand the Catholic Church and on the other hand some 35, 000 other Christian denominations including the likes of Joel Osteen; “Bishop” TD Jake; Rev. Sharpton; Rev. Wright; David Koresh; Rev. Jim Jones; or gay and lesbian ordinations of Christian bishops like Lutherans, Episcopalians, and Anglicans or simply trust you own interpretation and judgment like what the Gnostics tried to do? To ask this question is to answer it.

Please don't revert to this straw man argument! First of all, there are NOT 35,000 other Christian denominations. That bogus number has been disputed so many times here it is crazy to have to do so yet again. Secondly, it is pretending to think that the Catholic Church is unified on all questions of doctrine and dogma. It is a sham and there are numerous polls that prove beyond doubt that such unity is a pipe dream. Though "officially" there are stated beliefs and doctrines, only a small minority, if that, holds dogmatically to each and every one. I doubt you could get all those cardinals gathering in Rome to universally agree on every point. All throughout its history, the Catholic Church has had various theologians toss ideas back and forth to try to come to agreement. Often, there was NO unanimity but majority rules. One church father revered in one century becomes a heretic in the next. One Pope proclaiming dogma gets contradicted by the next one and that one gets overruled later. I know how dearly Catholics want to hold onto that equilibrium and believe it is all true whatever they are told, but declaring herself the One, True Church did not prevent Rome from falling into debauchery and excess. Even the current homosexual/pedophile scandal is nothing new. It's been going on for well over a thousand years if not longer.

Where we know who are the true body of Christ, his bride, is by their hearts and no one can see another's heart. That's something only God can do, so He knows his own and he couldn't care less what sign is posted outside a believer's house of worship. The true bride will show herself by her fruits, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. The "authentic" teachings of Jesus ARE found in Holy Scripture. That's why He gave it to us! It alone is the only objective and authoritative source we have for knowing what is or isn't truth. On the basic doctrine of our salvation, it is crystal clear that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ and NOT of our own works so that we cannot boast. Jesus did it ALL. He redeemed us by his precious blood shed upon the cross at Calvary so that the sin debt of the world would be paid IN FULL. It is only man-made religions that add onto that simple plan of salvation. Is it important to know about the nature of our God and how he has worked and will work in our world and lives? Sure, but it doesn't affect our salvation. That thief next to Jesus on the cross didn't need to know about the Trinity to be saved. He didn't have to get down from his cruel cross to get baptized "properly" to be saved. He didn't have to take a new members class to be saved or be able to quote Bible verses. He didn't even have to receive the Eucharist to be saved. But Jesus said, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise.".

We have the writings of the Apostles and their direct disciples that explain the doctrines Christians need to know to be good Christians and live lives that honor and glorify God. He certainly wants us to. He gave us the Holy Spirit to be our guarantee of eternal life and to lead us into all truth. He gave to the believers within each local church pastors and teachers and evangelists to equip and edify the saints to help us be all that God desires for us. He didn't leave us without the Comforter - HIS presence with us for all time. We CAN know we have everlasting life right now, because we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and his grace is sufficient for us. What a wonderful plan God has for each one of us! It starts with being born again into HIS family by grace through faith in Christ. That is the simple - deceptively simple for some - plan of salvation.

458 posted on 03/01/2013 10:57:24 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

If real Christians followed the Pope, would they be resigning from their assigned royal priesthoods when they felt they should do so? I’m so confused. /s


459 posted on 03/02/2013 12:39:28 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: boatbums; All

Oh, how nice! So when Christ gave His Apostles the Great Commission to go forth and teach all nations and established His Church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, this was all pointless because we are all saved by God’s grace. There is no reason to teach and evangelize a single Truth.

But no worries. In your mind “the ‘authentic’ teachings of Jesus ARE found in Holy Scripture.” So all of His unrecorded words and deeds are redundant! And who do you think first sorted out the “authentic” from the “inauthentic”? Was it not up to the early Church Fathers and their successors to Peter and the early Church who adopted the books we call the “Bible” as authentic?

You see these select set of books did not drop from the sky. And it was the oral and received tradition of His disciples that believed in the Holy Eucharist and the First Mass. Some serious reading and scholarship might help.

A good place to start is to read the book: “How Christ Said The First Mass” by Fr. James L.Meagher D.D.This nearly 500 page book is replete with historical scholarship that will take some reading since it analyzes early Hebrew worship to what Christ’s disciples did. But then again, this takes serious study and its not the stuff your local corner street FourSquare Church pastor would bother to do or for that matter the Joel Osteens and Rev. Al Sharptons of this world.

And by the way if its not 35,000 denominations, I’ll settle for 5000 as a threshold number. Yes, there were sinners even among his Apostles. Tradition tells us that Christ fell on the road to His crucifixion (BTW, that’s not found in Scripture) and so would His earthy representatives fall as well. The Church is not simply a hotel for saints but also a hospital for sinners and its non-believers. But alas, any of that is not important. One wonders why one of the greatest non-Catholic Christian scholars converted to Catholicism was made a cardinal and is now a Blessed after whom universities have on-campus societies and clubs named after him. His name? Blessed Cardinal Newman. Here, in the US, the top-ranking Lutheran Theologian and scholar, Fr. Neuhaus not only converted to Catholicism, he admitted how he was led astray by the errors of Luther and fundamentalists.


460 posted on 03/02/2013 12:55:40 AM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: Steelfish
Oh, how nice! So when Christ gave His Apostles the Great Commission to go forth and teach all nations and established His Church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, this was all pointless because we are all saved by God’s grace. There is no reason to teach and evangelize a single Truth.

Did you skip over the part in my response where I said:

On the basic doctrine of our salvation, it is crystal clear that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ and NOT of our own works so that we cannot boast. Jesus did it ALL. He redeemed us by his precious blood shed upon the cross at Calvary so that the sin debt of the world would be paid IN FULL. It is only man-made religions that add onto that simple plan of salvation.

So, no, not all will be saved because not all will BELIEVE. I don't accept "universal salvation", do you? Jesus said the way to heaven was narrow and FEW would find it. Any religion, whose claim to fame is the enormous total of their membership, doesn't sound like the way Jesus spoke of. The reason to teach and evangelize the world, according to Jesus' command is so that the world would hear of the coming of the savior and all those who diligently seek for the truth will know. After one believes and is saved, their walk with Christ, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, is used by God to reach a lost and dying world with the good news of the Gospel. As I said, we learn to live to please God and honor him so that the world will be drawn to Christ. Rather than thinking our works and deeds are what "merit" or "earn" our salvation, we are told that it is by God's GRACE alone that we can be saved. It is faith in Christ, believing in him and what he has done for us, that saves. Pure grace - undeserved, unmerited, unearned.

As to the "authentic" teachings of Jesus, if they were not included in the Scriptures, then they are not binding on a Christian, they don't influence what it takes to be saved. No one denies that Jesus did many things or even said many things not recorded in Scripture, because Scripture SAYS that, but John said what he DID write down was so we would believe and have eternal life. Whatever anyone adds to Scripture, insisting Jesus really DID say or the Apostles really did say, have no objective proof. Especially we must question anything that would contradict what is in Scripture. If these guidelines are lacking in your church, then you should know you might be following man-made doctrine that has no assurance of coming from God. There's PLENTY of that going around.

461 posted on 03/02/2013 3:51:33 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Syncro
Your posts have denied scriptural truths and ridiculed salvation the proper way to interpret the bible is to follow the Catholic Church....as Christ demanded...listen to what the church teaches...follow it....believe it.

nonsense....Christ uses the Catholic Church as His method of communication....there are no large clouds above your head with the voice of God coming directly to you. The church is about 2013 years old...grasp the fact that she knows what she is doing.....God did not leave a pile of knowledge on the ground somewhere hoping that you would come across it....He issues His knowledge, love, wisdom, through His chosen intermediary the Catholic Church...learn to love it....it is here to stay.

462 posted on 03/02/2013 4:48:22 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl
Your posts have denied scriptural truths and ridiculed salvation(<---what you have done and I pointed out to you) the proper way to interpret the bible is to follow the Catholic Church....as Christ demanded...listen to what the church teaches...follow it....believe it.

nonsense....

That's what I have been telling you for a long time! That is absolute nonsense, you got it right.

Here is the rest of my post you are responding to, you forgot to post the whole thing:

And accused the brethren of doing something that was not done.

And typed a comment that virtually told another poster that what he posted about himself was a lie.

And now denying the Holy Spirit His power, and instead putting the Catholic church's teachings above Gods. Illustrated by your post to which I am responding now:

no matter how well trained one is in learning the Greek language, the way to understand the scriptures (no matter what language you read it in) is for the Holy Spirit to reveal the meanings.

the proper way to interpret the bible is to follow the Catholic Church....as Christ demanded...listen to what the church teaches...follow it....believe it.

No terycarl, I will continue to follow God instead of man.

God did not demand we follow the Catholic Church, He told us to follow Him and trust the Holy Spirit for guidance, not a church or a Catholic who denies the power of the Holy Spirit.

Holy Spirit trumps Catholicism, sorry that is not understood universally through all denominations.

 


463 posted on 03/02/2013 5:21:49 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: boatbums; All

We are of course saved by God’s grace and mercy provided we follow His Teachings. His teachings are not confined to only the text found in scripture. It was left to the early Church Fathers to sort out what books, writings, and texts guided by the Holy Spirit to include in the book we called the Bible. But interpreting its text and how it was understood was left to His disciples to be taught to all nations as ONE Truth and for this He established His Church and gave to Peter and his successors the keys to the Kingdom of heaven. We each can’t have our own interpretations otherwise we become a Tower of Babel.

For example, on the Road to Emmaus, the disciples recognized our Lord only when He broke the bread. The apostles and their successors found this to be as one more experience and what was understood by all His followers at the time to be the institution of the Holy Eucharist.

Now you may disagree as well as would others. But those who disagreed before like Cardinal Newman and pre-eminet U.S. Lutheran theologian Fr. Neuhaus on deeper scholarship and understanding came to agree on this interpretation and being true to their conscience they all converted to Catholicism.

Just look around and see the utter disarray among the thousands of Christian sects purporting to interpret scripture from novice “prosperity gospel” fools like Joel Osteen and “socialist” Rev. Wright to established sects like the gay clergy marriage approving Church of England, Lutherans, Episcopalians, and the Scottish rites. Then of course, we have the Black Churches (AME), the Korean Churches, and the individuals from kool-aid Rev. Jim Jones to rapture nuts like Rev. David Koresh.


464 posted on 03/02/2013 6:39:47 PM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: Syncro
No terycarl, I will continue to follow God instead of man. God did not demand we follow the Catholic Church, He told us to follow Him and trust the Holy Spirit for guidance, not a church or a Catholic who denies the power of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit trumps Catholicism, sorry that is not understood universally through all denominations.

nope, doesn't work that way....the Catholic church is indeed the spokeaman for Christ. The Holy Spirit does not come out of the woodwork and speak for God....He uses an emissary ( the Catholic Church) to speak for Him...why try to deny the obvious the truth is a couple of thousands year old...and has been studied and proved by hundreds of scholars....just not you??

465 posted on 03/02/2013 9:29:32 PM PST by terycarl
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To: Cvengr
If real Christians followed the Pope

all real Christians follow the Pope.

466 posted on 03/02/2013 9:36:08 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl
...spokeaman for Christ

I just can't keep up with the Catholic jargon.

You CANNOT quench the Holy Spirit, He does as he pleases, and as God the Father and God the Son, Jesus decide, NOT YOU!

terycarl, DO NOT [attempt to] QUENCH THE SPIRIT--1 Thessalonians 5
Why what with all your histrionic unBiblical posts am I not surprised that you would take it upon yourself to speak for God on the ministry of the Holy Spirit?

No wonder you come off as so confuzed in your understanding of spiritual matters, you listen to your denominiation's teachings instead of God's.

Good grief!

467 posted on 03/02/2013 9:51:48 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: terycarl; Cvengr
all real Christians follow the Pope.

Tell that to the Orthodox! Oh, wait, that's right, they are accepted as Christians anyway. It's okay if they refuse to obey the Pope of Rome. It's peachy they deny the Immaculate Conception. Do biggie that they reject the infallibility of the Pope of Rome. Just all you "other" people out there, you can't be a real Christian if you aren't Roman Catholics! Is that how the game is played? Contradict much?

468 posted on 03/02/2013 10:12:32 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
...you can't be a real Christian if you aren't Roman Catholics! Is that how the game is played? Contradict much?

SOP

: > )

469 posted on 03/03/2013 8:41:18 AM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: NYer

That’s a wordy post. True Christians should read the bible. Most Catholics don’t read the bible and vote Democrat. What’s up with that?


470 posted on 03/03/2013 8:43:32 AM PST by DungeonMaster (Low information Christians are turning the USA into Europe and eventully Haiti.)
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To: boatbums
Excellent post boatbums!

Bears repeating, here's part of it:

One church father revered in one century becomes a heretic in the next. One Pope proclaiming dogma gets contradicted by the next one and that one gets overruled later.

I know how dearly Catholics want to hold onto that equilibrium and believe it is all true whatever they are told, but declaring herself the One, True Church did not prevent Rome from falling into debauchery and excess.

Even the current homosexual/pedophile scandal is nothing new. It's been going on for well over a thousand years if not longer.

Where we know who are the true body of Christ, his bride, is by their hearts and no one can see another's heart. That's something only God...He knows his own and he couldn't care less what sign is posted outside a believer's house of worship. The true bride will show herself by her fruits, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. The "authentic" teachings of Jesus ARE found in Holy Scripture. That's why He gave it to us! It alone is the only objective and authoritative source we have for knowing what is or isn't truth. On the basic doctrine of our salvation, it is crystal clear that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ and NOT of our own works so that we cannot boast. Jesus did it ALL. He redeemed us by his precious blood shed upon the cross at Calvary so that the sin debt of the world would be paid IN FULL. It is only man-made religions that add onto that simple plan of salvation.

Is it important to know about the nature of our God and how he has worked and will work in our world and lives? Sure, but it doesn't affect our salvation. That thief next to Jesus on the cross didn't need to know about the Trinity to be saved. He didn't have to get down from his cruel cross to get baptized "properly" to be saved.

He didn't even have to receive the Eucharist to be saved. But Jesus said, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise."

We have the writings of the Apostles and their direct disciples that explain the doctrines Christians need to know to be good Christians and live lives that honor and glorify God. He certainly wants us to. He gave us the Holy Spirit to be our guarantee of eternal life and to lead us into all truth. He gave to the believers within each local church pastors and teachers and evangelists to equip and edify the saints to help us be all that God desires for us. He didn't leave us without the Comforter - HIS presence with us for all time. We CAN know we have everlasting life right now, because we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and his grace is sufficient for us. What a wonderful plan God has for each one of us! It starts with being born again into HIS family by grace through faith in Christ. That is the simple - deceptively simple for some - plan of salvation.

Amen to that.

And to what I didn't repeat here.

471 posted on 03/03/2013 9:38:27 AM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: terycarl

How does one “Follow the Pope”?


472 posted on 03/03/2013 9:43:32 AM PST by DungeonMaster (Low information Christians are turning the USA into Europe and eventully Haiti.)
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To: Syncro
The "authentic" teachings of Jesus ARE found in Holy Scripture. That's why He gave it to us!

Where is that stated in scripture?

473 posted on 03/03/2013 10:22:13 AM PST by NYer (“Beware the man of a single book.” - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer; boatbums
The "authentic" teachings of Jesus ARE found in Holy Scripture. That's why He gave it to us!

Where is that stated in scripture?

2 Timothy 3:16

Many translations:

All Scripture is God-breathed

All Scripture is inspired by God

All Scripture is breathed out by God

All scripture is given by inspiration of God

Why He gave it to us?

Same scripture reference:

...and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Where do you find the authentic teachings of Jesus?
474 posted on 03/03/2013 10:54:13 AM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: Syncro
Syncro wrote: That's why He gave it to us! (It =Scripture)

NYer asked: Where is that stated in scripture? = Where in Scripture does Jesus instruct Matthew, Mark, and John to record his words and then compile them into a Bible?

475 posted on 03/03/2013 11:21:57 AM PST by NYer (“Beware the man of a single book.” - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer
I gave you scripture references.

We have a triune God, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

It is the Holy Spirit that inspired the writers of the New Testament in what words to record.

So your question is kind of a non sequitur.

This subject is finished, if it isn't clear to you now it never will be.

I'm not going argue against all the dogma that has been hashed out already ad infinitum .

Scripture based Christians believe and get their information and inspiration from a source denied as Truth by the Catholic church. No problem...for me.

476 posted on 03/03/2013 12:01:52 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: Syncro
It is the Holy Spirit that inspired the writers of the New Testament in what words to record.

No argument there whatsoever. You cited 2 Timothy 3:16–17 where Paul is laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of Scripture and tradition in his ministry as a bishop. In 2 Tim. 3:14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you haveheard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2).

As one who believes scripture to be inspired, then you also accept Paul's admonition to follow oral tradition.

477 posted on 03/03/2013 12:39:31 PM PST by NYer (“Beware the man of a single book.” - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: terycarl
He issues His knowledge, love, wisdom, through His chosen intermediary the Catholic Church....

Study the doctrines of the Hypostatic Union, Kenosis, Indwelling of God the Holy Spirit, the Shekinah Glory, then even consider the murals of saints in old medieval church walls of halos.

God communicates directly to the believer who is in fellowship with Him by His volition.

478 posted on 03/03/2013 1:10:27 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: NYer
Nothing said about oral or traditions in those scriptures, 2 Tim 3:14-17.

Mostly exhortations to continue with the scriptures already written.

Of course in those days when God was inspiring the writers of the NT, it wasn't written down yet. Although of course lots of letters from Paul were.

So naturally they were taught back then to follow the words of those that God was inspiring to speak what would eventually become the NT, which we have now.

It does not substantiate the traditions of the Catholic church as being as important as scripture.

Paul was NOT telling us to follow the traditions of the Catholic church in this day and age.

I have no problem if you want to, it's your choice.

Oh and Timothy was a disciple [Acts 16:1], not a Bishop.

But according to later tradition, Paul consecrated Timothy as bishop of Ephesus in the year 65

About 15 years later apparently he died a martyrs death, being stoned to death by pagans.

Interesting that he was trying to stop a a pagan procession of idols, ceremonies, and songs

Kind of like today trying to stop a homosexual parade marching through our cites so much these days.

I'll bet they would like to kill us if we tried to stop those.

479 posted on 03/03/2013 1:47:44 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: Syncro
No terycarl, I will continue to follow God instead of man. God did not demand we follow the Catholic Church, He told us to follow Him and trust the Holy Spirit for guidance, not a church or a Catholic who denies the power of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit trumps Catholicism, sorry that is not understood universally through all denominations.

so let's see Christ was here on Earth, established His group of Apostles and disciples died on the cross for us....and ignored the organization that He had established.....He said throughout the centuries the Holy Spirit will come to everyone directly and guide them...

there would be no reason at all to have an established church to bring the message to humanity....just listen to the wind....the Holy Spirit will talk to you...........ummmmmmmI don't think so, I would rather have an organization that would record, interpret, preserve scripture and provide it to me a few thousand years from it's beginning...Just saying!!

480 posted on 03/03/2013 9:13:54 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl
ME: No terycarl, I will continue to follow God instead of man.

God did not demand we follow the Catholic Church, He told us to follow Him and trust the Holy Spirit for guidance, not a church or a Catholic who denies the power of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit trumps Catholicism, sorry that is not understood universally through all denominations.

YOU: so let's see Christ was here on Earth, established His group of Apostles and disciples died on the cross for us...

The Apostles and disciples did not die on the cross for us, Jesus did.

YOU: and [Christ] ignored the organization that He had established

No, he did not establish an organization, he established a church made up of all saved Christians.

Back in His day he fought against and tried to lead to truth many of those in "established" religious "organizations" and the words he used would apply to your org today...generation of vipers more concerned with ritual and pomp than the messages from God and the Holy Spirit[whom you deny the power and ministry of...and the Catholic belief that holy scriptures as NOT more important than Catholic tradition.]

YOU: He said throughout the centuries the Holy Spirit will come to everyone directly and guide them

Amazingly enough you got that right.

YOU:just listen to the wind....the Holy Spirit will talk to you...........ummmmmmmI don't think so

Well the scriptures disagree with you once again.

Jesus, in John Chapter 3:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

And then the chapter goes on, and as he spoke to Nicodemis, so today he speaks from 2000 years ago to the Catholic hierarchy:
9Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered and said to him, "are you the teacher of Israel [insert Catholicism in place of Israel to get the understanding of His message to you] and do not understand these things?11"Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."
Even though the following truth will probably be like casting you a pearl and not received as in the past with Biblical truths shown to you, I will attempt teach you something
The Greek and Hebrew words translated "spirit" (pneuma and ruach) are also translated either "wind" or "breath."

Both the words wind and breath are also used in close conjunction with the Holy Spirit in scripture.

Thank you again for showing how far off your "organization" is from what Jesus taught, you posts boost tremendously the need for the Truth of Jesus to permeate Catholicism.
481 posted on 03/04/2013 9:29:39 AM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: Ecliptic

My translation says nothing about equality, only that worldly ideas of status do not matter in Christ.


482 posted on 03/09/2013 8:23:23 AM PST by TradicalRC (Conservatism is primarily a Christian movement.)
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To: Ecliptic

Catholic of course means universal as opposed to Jewish which was tribal. Later it came to be used as a way to distinguish one denomination from another. The Bible does not use monotheistic or Trinity but I would argue that those concepts are implicit in the text. Nowhere in the Bible does it say “Scripture alone” but that certainly did not stop many Protestants from subscribing to that notion.


483 posted on 03/09/2013 8:28:18 AM PST by TradicalRC (Conservatism is primarily a Christian movement.)
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