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To: Steelfish; Boogieman
And again we revert to the threshold question. Whose interpretation of Scripture, revelation, and tradition do we accept? You have on one hand the Catholic Church and on the other hand some 35, 000 other Christian denominations including the likes of Joel Osteen; “Bishop” TD Jake; Rev. Sharpton; Rev. Wright; David Koresh; Rev. Jim Jones; or gay and lesbian ordinations of Christian bishops like Lutherans, Episcopalians, and Anglicans or simply trust you own interpretation and judgment like what the Gnostics tried to do? To ask this question is to answer it.

Please don't revert to this straw man argument! First of all, there are NOT 35,000 other Christian denominations. That bogus number has been disputed so many times here it is crazy to have to do so yet again. Secondly, it is pretending to think that the Catholic Church is unified on all questions of doctrine and dogma. It is a sham and there are numerous polls that prove beyond doubt that such unity is a pipe dream. Though "officially" there are stated beliefs and doctrines, only a small minority, if that, holds dogmatically to each and every one. I doubt you could get all those cardinals gathering in Rome to universally agree on every point. All throughout its history, the Catholic Church has had various theologians toss ideas back and forth to try to come to agreement. Often, there was NO unanimity but majority rules. One church father revered in one century becomes a heretic in the next. One Pope proclaiming dogma gets contradicted by the next one and that one gets overruled later. I know how dearly Catholics want to hold onto that equilibrium and believe it is all true whatever they are told, but declaring herself the One, True Church did not prevent Rome from falling into debauchery and excess. Even the current homosexual/pedophile scandal is nothing new. It's been going on for well over a thousand years if not longer.

Where we know who are the true body of Christ, his bride, is by their hearts and no one can see another's heart. That's something only God can do, so He knows his own and he couldn't care less what sign is posted outside a believer's house of worship. The true bride will show herself by her fruits, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. The "authentic" teachings of Jesus ARE found in Holy Scripture. That's why He gave it to us! It alone is the only objective and authoritative source we have for knowing what is or isn't truth. On the basic doctrine of our salvation, it is crystal clear that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ and NOT of our own works so that we cannot boast. Jesus did it ALL. He redeemed us by his precious blood shed upon the cross at Calvary so that the sin debt of the world would be paid IN FULL. It is only man-made religions that add onto that simple plan of salvation. Is it important to know about the nature of our God and how he has worked and will work in our world and lives? Sure, but it doesn't affect our salvation. That thief next to Jesus on the cross didn't need to know about the Trinity to be saved. He didn't have to get down from his cruel cross to get baptized "properly" to be saved. He didn't have to take a new members class to be saved or be able to quote Bible verses. He didn't even have to receive the Eucharist to be saved. But Jesus said, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise.".

We have the writings of the Apostles and their direct disciples that explain the doctrines Christians need to know to be good Christians and live lives that honor and glorify God. He certainly wants us to. He gave us the Holy Spirit to be our guarantee of eternal life and to lead us into all truth. He gave to the believers within each local church pastors and teachers and evangelists to equip and edify the saints to help us be all that God desires for us. He didn't leave us without the Comforter - HIS presence with us for all time. We CAN know we have everlasting life right now, because we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and his grace is sufficient for us. What a wonderful plan God has for each one of us! It starts with being born again into HIS family by grace through faith in Christ. That is the simple - deceptively simple for some - plan of salvation.

458 posted on 03/01/2013 10:57:24 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

If real Christians followed the Pope, would they be resigning from their assigned royal priesthoods when they felt they should do so? I’m so confused. /s


459 posted on 03/02/2013 12:39:28 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: boatbums; All

Oh, how nice! So when Christ gave His Apostles the Great Commission to go forth and teach all nations and established His Church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, this was all pointless because we are all saved by God’s grace. There is no reason to teach and evangelize a single Truth.

But no worries. In your mind “the ‘authentic’ teachings of Jesus ARE found in Holy Scripture.” So all of His unrecorded words and deeds are redundant! And who do you think first sorted out the “authentic” from the “inauthentic”? Was it not up to the early Church Fathers and their successors to Peter and the early Church who adopted the books we call the “Bible” as authentic?

You see these select set of books did not drop from the sky. And it was the oral and received tradition of His disciples that believed in the Holy Eucharist and the First Mass. Some serious reading and scholarship might help.

A good place to start is to read the book: “How Christ Said The First Mass” by Fr. James L.Meagher D.D.This nearly 500 page book is replete with historical scholarship that will take some reading since it analyzes early Hebrew worship to what Christ’s disciples did. But then again, this takes serious study and its not the stuff your local corner street FourSquare Church pastor would bother to do or for that matter the Joel Osteens and Rev. Al Sharptons of this world.

And by the way if its not 35,000 denominations, I’ll settle for 5000 as a threshold number. Yes, there were sinners even among his Apostles. Tradition tells us that Christ fell on the road to His crucifixion (BTW, that’s not found in Scripture) and so would His earthy representatives fall as well. The Church is not simply a hotel for saints but also a hospital for sinners and its non-believers. But alas, any of that is not important. One wonders why one of the greatest non-Catholic Christian scholars converted to Catholicism was made a cardinal and is now a Blessed after whom universities have on-campus societies and clubs named after him. His name? Blessed Cardinal Newman. Here, in the US, the top-ranking Lutheran Theologian and scholar, Fr. Neuhaus not only converted to Catholicism, he admitted how he was led astray by the errors of Luther and fundamentalists.


460 posted on 03/02/2013 12:55:40 AM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: boatbums
Excellent post boatbums!

Bears repeating, here's part of it:

One church father revered in one century becomes a heretic in the next. One Pope proclaiming dogma gets contradicted by the next one and that one gets overruled later.

I know how dearly Catholics want to hold onto that equilibrium and believe it is all true whatever they are told, but declaring herself the One, True Church did not prevent Rome from falling into debauchery and excess.

Even the current homosexual/pedophile scandal is nothing new. It's been going on for well over a thousand years if not longer.

Where we know who are the true body of Christ, his bride, is by their hearts and no one can see another's heart. That's something only God...He knows his own and he couldn't care less what sign is posted outside a believer's house of worship. The true bride will show herself by her fruits, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. The "authentic" teachings of Jesus ARE found in Holy Scripture. That's why He gave it to us! It alone is the only objective and authoritative source we have for knowing what is or isn't truth. On the basic doctrine of our salvation, it is crystal clear that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ and NOT of our own works so that we cannot boast. Jesus did it ALL. He redeemed us by his precious blood shed upon the cross at Calvary so that the sin debt of the world would be paid IN FULL. It is only man-made religions that add onto that simple plan of salvation.

Is it important to know about the nature of our God and how he has worked and will work in our world and lives? Sure, but it doesn't affect our salvation. That thief next to Jesus on the cross didn't need to know about the Trinity to be saved. He didn't have to get down from his cruel cross to get baptized "properly" to be saved.

He didn't even have to receive the Eucharist to be saved. But Jesus said, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise."

We have the writings of the Apostles and their direct disciples that explain the doctrines Christians need to know to be good Christians and live lives that honor and glorify God. He certainly wants us to. He gave us the Holy Spirit to be our guarantee of eternal life and to lead us into all truth. He gave to the believers within each local church pastors and teachers and evangelists to equip and edify the saints to help us be all that God desires for us. He didn't leave us without the Comforter - HIS presence with us for all time. We CAN know we have everlasting life right now, because we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and his grace is sufficient for us. What a wonderful plan God has for each one of us! It starts with being born again into HIS family by grace through faith in Christ. That is the simple - deceptively simple for some - plan of salvation.

Amen to that.

And to what I didn't repeat here.

471 posted on 03/03/2013 9:38:27 AM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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