Posted on 05/26/2013 3:54:31 AM PDT by NYer
“Along with not knowing what prayer is,”
Your definitions simply do not exist in the scripture, and, therefore, they need not exist to me. When Christ declares that we are all Kings and Priests in His sight, and when He tells us to ask of Him freely and, believing, expect to receive, I am quite positive He means it. There’s hardly room, or even necessity, for another God to play mediator. We have our one Mediator, who is Christ, and we have our intercessor, who is the Holy Spirit.
Rom_8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I’ll stick to what is known in the scripture, and not with any invented fables or corrupt definitions.
I find that to be quite the other way around.
All one need to observe is which form of worship is efficacious. At one end of the spectrum are the many verified and verifiable miracles within Catholic worship and a contrasting paucity within Protestant worship.
What paucity? Miracles abound... They are not weeping statues, apparitions in grilled cheese, and such silliness and magic - but I have seen healing... I have seen tongues, I have seen prophecy...
At the other end of the spectrum is the power of the Church to perform exorcisms and drive out demons where Protestantism takes a more tolerant and head in the sand approach.
I can confidently assert that the Pentecostals and charismatics go boldly where your priests fear to tread - and without incantations, without 'holy water', without all the baubles and talismans. All they have is the promise and the power of the Name. And they do it on such a regular basis that it is commonplace.
If the Saints are not alive and do not have eternal life then the Gospels are a lie. If there are not creatures who are 100% spirit then the Old and New Testaments are a lie. You can't have it both ways nor impose the limitations of your understandings on God.
“If the Saints are not alive and do not have eternal life then the Gospels are a lie.”
We aren’t talking about whether or not they have eternal life or are spirits. We’re talking about whether Christians after death have the divine qualities of omnipresence and omniscience, and take up the role of God in hearing and answering prayer.
No it isn't. Where did you get that idea?
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" It basically says that this person, a spiritual being up in heaven, is capable of hearing your prayers (and every prayer sent to it) from all over the world, which basically makes them, in effect, omnipresent and omniscient. "
No it doesn't. You can only hear ANYTHING AT ALL because God makes it possible for you to hear it. God (who created and controls "time" and "sound") is the Omniscient One, the Omnipresent One, and the Omnipotent One who decides what you can hear, when you can hear it, and how much you can hear. Nothing is impossible for God.
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" Not only that, but it asserts that they are in greater favor than you are, despite the fact that all believers share in the imputed righteousness of Christ. "
No it doesn't. When the Bible tells us to "pray for one another" (James 5:16), it does not say that one or the other is better than the other one. Do you think if those who have overcome and are saved in heaven (such as the thief on the cross who made it to paradise and is with Our Lord) are still able to pray to God or not? If so, can God hear those prayers of that former thief?
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"From the Litany posted earlier:
'Holy Mother of God, Holy Virgin of virgins, Mother of the Church, Mother of divine grace, Mother most pure, Mother most chaste, Mother inviolate, Mother undefiled, Mother most amiable, Mother admirable, Mother of good counsel, Mother of mercy, Virgin most prudent, Virgin most powerful, Virgin most merciful, Virgin most faithful, Mirror of justice, Seat of wisdom, Mystical rose, Tower of David, Tower if ivory, Ark of the covenant, Gate of heaven, Morning star, Health of the sick, Refuge of sinners, Comfort of the afflicted, Help of Christians, Queen of Angels, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Prophets, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Virgins, Queen of all Saints, Queen conceived without original sin, Queen assumed into heaven, Queen of the most holy Rosary, Queen of families, Queen of peace.'
So, who is being praised here? The creature, or the creator?"
The creature is being praised there obviously. (Do you see "worship her" in that litany of honor there anywhere? If so, you are seeing things that are not there.) Do you have kids? If so, do you ever praise them? Do you show honor to people (for example, do you show honor to your Mother and Father)? Do you know a text in the Bible where it tells you to never praise anybody, or show anybody honor, but to only praise God and only to show God honor?
Was Paul committing a sin when he praised various human beings (creatures) in his letters? (See, for one example, 1 Thessalonians 1:2-3 where it says, "We give thanks to God always for you all, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.")
Jesus honored His Mother, and we should honor her too. Out of all the billions and billions and billions of human beings who have ever lived, God only chose one single one of them to have the extremely high honor and privilege to bear His Son, and it wasn't you, Puny, and it wasn't me.
God showed His special creature Mary great honor, and so should we, and we should be ever grateful that she said "yes". I strongly urge you to reconsider all of these things prayerfully.
“No it isn’t. Where did you get that idea?”
Besides the scripture? Your religion:
“Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.” (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914)
See post #114 for more.
“No it doesn’t. You can only hear ANYTHING AT ALL because God makes it possible for you to hear it.”
God does not make it possible to hear every prayer in the world, whether said or unsaid (in the mind), and the heart of the person praying, and to understand and process them billions at a time, since to do so would be to give the individual omnipresence and omniscience, which are attributes of the Deity. Not only that, but it usurps His place in the prayer life of Christians, as the scripture only tells us that we ought to approach God without fear in the name of Christ, and frequently, and in none of the teachings of prayer in scripture are we told to pray to a creature.
“No it doesn’t. When the Bible tells us to “pray for one another” (James 5:16), it does not say that one or the other is better than the other one”
In that event, you should be pleased to ask your friend to pray for you instead of involving yourself in a form of necromancy. I ask my friend to pray for me all the time, and my prayers are almost always answered when this is done, and miraculously too. There is no reason to disturb the rest of departed Christians, who are not more holy than any other Christian on Earth who has the imputed righteousness of Christ. Furthermore, your friend can hear you. The Christians in heaven cannot. The scripture says to ask our brothers and sisters to pray for you. It does not say, to sit before an altar of Mary, adorned with flowers and incense, on your knees, and beg for her help and protection.
“Do you have kids? If so, do you ever praise them?”
Sure, but I never say to a child “Oh all-holy ever-virgin kinsmen, thou protector of my life, my stronghold, my protection, my help, oh seat of wisdom and stayer of God’s hand, pray for us sinners!”
No, that is what you were talking about. I was referring to Saints being able to hear our requests for intercession (prayers) and to pray for us to God.
When God created man he formed us from the dust of the earth and breathed the breath of life into us. This breath is the immortal spirit (soul) that uniquely elevates a physical being to the likeness of God. When we die, our bodies temporarily return to dust, but our souls are released. Those of us who are saints will be spiritually present before God.
Spiritual beings are not constrained by the physical world. They exist outside of time and space. Are they omniscient? No. Are they omnipresent? Who knows, but they are certainly multipresent. Can they hear our prayers and themselves pray to God? Absolutely.
Peace be with you.
“No, that is what you were talking about. I was referring to Saints being able to hear our requests for intercession (prayers) and to pray for us to God.”
Which, by definition, would be back to what you just said I was talking about:
“We’re talking about whether Christians after death have the divine qualities of omnipresence and omniscience, and take up the role of God in hearing and answering prayer.”
“Spiritual beings are not constrained by the physical world. “
Created beings, whether spiritual or not, are constrained with being in one location at a time. Hence why the Angel was held up by the infernal forces for some time before he was able to meet with Daniel:
Dan 10:12-13 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. (13) But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Not even angels are omnipresent or omniscient, but must move from one location to another. Only God is “multipresent,” not any created being. Only God is able to comprehend and know everything at once, not man. Only God is able to absorb all information in the world, hear the thoughts of men, understand their languages, and be there with them every point in their life. A created being, certainly, cannot.
LOL. Spirits are no more constrained by space and time than are your thoughts.
My thoughts can simultaneously be on the surface of the moon and the bottom of the ocean, at the moment of my daughters birth and at the parting of the Red Sea same time. How much more free will our souls be which will always be in the presence of God, who himself is omnipresent.
Peace be to you
“LOL. Spirits are no more constrained by space and time than are your thoughts.”
Your opinion is firmly refuted by the scripture I already posted, for the angel is in the “presence” of the omnipresent God, yet is not sharing in God’s divinity to become omnipresent himself. Your ideas are a blasphemy I will not indulge.
You are funny. Do you write for Bill Maher?
“You are funny.”
You, most certainly, are not.
The error here, is that you apparently have no perspective which would allow you to appreciate that the Citizens of Heaven (saints and angels) have very high giftedness, which is still finite, and still always radically less than God's infinite capacity. You see no gradations, no differences. Many, many creatures can have dramatically more capacities than I do, and be much more spiritually gifted, and not be divine, just as an angel can have more powers and abilities than I do, without being divine.
Please reflect in the fact that omniscience, omnipresence, and infinity indicate an entirely different order of being, far above that of the creature. There is no comparison between what a saint, or angel, or archangel can do, and what God can do. Even if, say, Michael the Archangel can go from one end of the Universe to the other at the speed of thought, that does not make him divine. He would reject that with terrifying force: "Who is like God?"
Therefore I can say Mary, or Abraham, or even my guardian angel, can hear us from heaven, without saying these holy people are divine. Divine they are not. Servants they are. Gifted they are. God has done great things for them, holy is His Name.
Second, my dear brother, you said "Supposedly, Lazarus does not need to be sent, since he is always mystically present with every Catholic believer, per your tagline."
Is that what the tagline means toyou? Really? Can you not even acknowledge that it's a quote from the Book of Romans and no just some trifle of Mrs. Don-o's? What does this verse mean to you?
As for exorcisms and healings, they are as common in Catholicism as they are in Pentecostalism, and far more adequately documented.
Which is not to say that they do not occur in Pentecostalism --- I'm not putting down the veracity of these miracles in the least --- I'm just saying that the Catholic Church is outstanding for subjecting reputed healing miracles to systematic and rather rigorous medical investigation.
In whatever "denomination" these miracles occur, it is Jesus Christ Our Lord who does them.
Peace be with you.
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" To pray to a created being, rather than the creator as taught in scripture, is essentially to give to them the honor of being a savior, a mediator, and a God. " "
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Then you said that that statement you made is somehow included in this quote you provided:
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" “Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.” (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914) "
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I think the problem is that you have to read and interpret things with a great deal more discernment, and, frankly, a lot more accuracy. That first statement is NOT included or implied anywhere in the second quote you provided, as you erroneously asserted.
Also, do you believe that Mary did her part to bring Jesus to this world through His birth, and that God specifically chose her to bring the merciful Jesus (our Saviour) into our human world like that, and God willed that Mary play her important part in bringing Jesus and His Mercy and His Grace to us, and that God had sent His special Messenger Gabriel to announce that to Mary in advance, and to ask for her consent first?
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" God does not make it possible to hear every prayer in the world, whether said or unsaid (in the mind), and the heart of the person praying, and to understand and process them billions at a time, since to do so would be to give the individual omnipresence and omniscience..." "
How in the world do you know what God does or does not do?
Also, those two special faculties (if given by God to a creature) would most certainly NOT give that person "omnipresence and omniscience". Please look those two words up in a good dictionary for their actual definitions.
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" In that event, you should be pleased to ask your friend to pray for you instead of involving yourself in a form of necromancy. "
Once again, you would do well to consult a good dictionary. You are using an incorrect interpretation of the word "necromancy".
Definition: Necromancy - 1. Divination by alleged communication with the dead. 2. Black magic; sorcery.
That in no way means asking someone else to pray for you, which is what Catholics do.
Do you believe that, while here on earth, Jesus actually spoke with Moses and Elijah? Do you believe Jesus engaged in necromancy? Do you believe that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the God of the dead, but of the living (as Jesus said - Matthew 22:32)?
Also, if there is a quote somewhere from, say, "Pope James John XXV", and it says, "It is sunny today", one cannot point to that quote and then say, "See - he said today is Tuesday!" Those two sentences do NOT mean the same thing at all - they truthfully bear no actual resemblence to each other.
One final point -- while typing speed can be an important factor here, accuracy and truthfulness are even more important, and we should all prudently seek those qualities in our posting.
I have to leave this computer right now, but I would implore you to reflect a lot more on all those quotes you are using before you type them, and read them again with great prayer, care, and measured discernment. Pay particular attention to greater discernment and distinction between flowery and poetic musings and actual statements of doctrine. In a well-meaning and good-natured way, I candidly tell you that I honestly believe that if you sincerely do that, you will end up being met with far fewer posters here deciding in frustration and exasperation that the unnecessary tedium and the extra tiresome work needed to correct so many invalid definitions and misinterpreted quotes, is just not worth the effort to try to continue to dialog with you.
May God bless you with His peace that passes all understanding.
Sorry, Mrs. D, if I got my dander up - NL's use of 'paucity' and 'head-in-the-sand' required a snappy retort for emphasis.
(I am sorry I do not have a smiley that rolls its eyes.)
Prior to smileys, there was *rolls eyes* ... Just sayin' : )
As for exorcisms and healings, they are as common in Catholicism as they are in Pentecostalism, and far more adequately documented.
I would contend with that mildly - Of course my observations are subjective, but I know of *no one* in the local Roman churches that claim healing or deliverance at all... Yet I can point readily to Pentecostals and Baptists (primarily, though not leaving out greater Protestantism) in handfuls. And I require no documentation. I know these folks, and have witnessed the effects personally. Even in my own self, and my greater family... Perhaps this is just a matter of such folks being more willing to proclaim it - I dunno. But everyone I DO know that has been healed, delivered, or has witnessed miracles of any kind, are prone to proclamation. You can't shut them up...
Which is not to say that they do not occur in Pentecostalism --- I'm not putting down the veracity of these miracles in the least [...] In whatever "denomination" these miracles occur, it is Jesus Christ Our Lord who does them.
Thank you for that - I will concur... And it is a far better statement than the one that generated this discussion.
“I think the problem is that you have to read and interpret things with a great deal more discernment,”
I also asked you to go read post 114, though the one quote you did acknowledge, and bypassed entirely, is also fatal, since it places Mary into the salvation formula.
“and to ask for her consent first?”
Luk 11:27-28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. (28) But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Luk 8:20-21 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. (21) And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
Claiming that she “consented” to let God bring the Messiah into the world certainly has a blasphemous ring to it, as if the will of God depends on a human being, or that the holiness of a human being adds to the work of God. And it is clear that there is no honor for Christ’s family that is superior to the honor that is freely given to all Christians. There’s no justification in scripture for deifying someone or accusing them of being the “all-holy Queen over all things.”
“How in the world do you know what God does or does not do?”
Isa_43:10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
God declares that no other God can be formed after Him. The attributes that are required to hear every prayer in the world, understand them, and understand the heart of the person praying, are all qualities of God. No spirit is capable of being in more than one place at one time, or holding such a vast amount of knowledge which changes and grows every day.
“That in no way means asking someone else to pray for you, which is what Catholics do.”
No, Catholics are sitting in front of altars of Mary, on their knees, pleading with a being up in heaven for her intercession. This isn’t asking someone else to pray for you. This is prayer to a being treated as divine, whom you expect is personally hearing your prayer, and is therefore in more than one place at one time.
Asking someone else to pray for me is what I do.
“Do you believe that, while here on earth, Jesus actually spoke with Moses and Elijah?”
It’s actually not clear that EITHER of them are actually dead, though certainly the God of Elijah and Moses can speak to them at any time if He pleases (Peter and the rest did not speak to them at all). Elijah was translated in the Old Testament and never tasted death. Moses did die, though the ancients largely thought it likely that Moses would serve as the “second witness” as mentioned in the Book of Revelation, if it isn’t Enoch. If he is the second witness, it is likely he already has been resurrected to a physical body.
Whatever the case, this isn’t what the RCC does. The RCC is praying out to people who are not even present, expecting them to hear, and asking for them for actual help, like one would do to God directly.
Here is the only one who really offers us this kind of help, Jesus Christ:
On how to pray:
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
On the power of faith:
Mar 11:22-24 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. (23) For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. (24) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
On the free nature of God’s gifts:
Mat 7:9-11 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? (10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? (11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Against the repetition of prayer:
Mat_6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
On the sainthood and righteousness of all believers:
1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev_1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Where, exactly, in all of this is there a need to pray to some other entity in heaven, instead of the God who is always present with us?
” Pay particular attention to greater discernment and distinction between flowery and poetic musings and actual statements of doctrine.”
Seeing the results of Catholic doctrine on people, who are there singing to Mary about her being their “strong hold” and “majestic hope,” whom they ‘adore,” makes it pretty clear what Rome’s doctrines are to me.
This is a perfectly valid point and one "GPH" seems to be missing but I'd also like to point to an even more basic point, one I believe should, at least for any open-minded lurker, make it clear that the "ability" to hear "simultaneous" prayers does not necessarily imply "omnipresence and/or "omnipotence"
Those two terms are reserved for what God can and does do "on earth" (or more broadly, in our universe). Our universe constrained and defined by linear time. (As an aside, I feel its important to note, no one says the saints come down to earth AND ALSO interact with ALL humanity at once here, on earth.)
Those "in" heaven are not so constrained. That's because heaven is not really a place (or other dimension, or any other physically definable entity or space), it's really a state of being. A state of being where one is literally outside of time (or more precisely outside the constraints of time).
So given this notion of heaven, it can be "easily" seen, if one dwells on that concept a bit (the concept of being outside of time) how it could be infinitely easy to receive all the prayers directed toward oneself "while in" heaven.
To put it in a very simple way, if one has an infinite amount of time to receive even a google plex of prayers, it's entirely possible because even for such a large set of prayers, given an infinite amount of time to both hear and answer them, it would be pretty much like hearing only one prayer for all eternity.
Just sit back and think about it, with an open mind willing to admit alternate possibilities. And you will see that not only what I wrote above is true, but also that what I wrote above does not require omni-anything on the part of the saint in question, since it's not occurring on earth (or any physical dimension), but rather "in" heaven (or in the state of being called heaven).
Too many posters do not think, ponder or ruminate before they spout. The discussion as to the limitations and abilities of spiritual creatures was allegedly "proved" by a single verse from Daniel, but it required that we suspend all other knowledge of angels and other spiritual creatures to accept it. It ignores that there are nine types of angels and that each individual angel is a unique species. Are we to conclude that angels are identical? It begs that all considerations of time and space be perceived through human senses (empiricism) and discounts the possibility of multiple points of both time and space converging on a single spiritual creature. It ignores the fact that Satan was an angel who today possesses multipresent capabilities.
Peace be with you
“This is a perfectly valid point and one “GPH” seems to be missing but I’d also like to point to an even more basic point, one I believe should, at least for any open-minded lurker, make it clear that the “ability” to hear “simultaneous” prayers does not necessarily imply “omnipresence and/or “omnipotence””
It is not just Mary hearing but a few prayers at the same time. It’s Mary hearing every prayer made to her by every Catholic in the world, at the same time, in more than one place, in more than one language, by more than one person, every minute, every hour, and every year. You can’t just sit there and claim “Okay, she is multipresent, but she’s not OMNIPRESSENT!!!” or “Okay, she knows all the languages in the world, and the intimate details of each person’s life, but she’s not OMNISCIENT!” It’s like telling me that the Easter Bunny is real, but you don’t believe in it.
This line of reasoning is only valid for a person determined to cling to their fables and to deify a human spirit. Notice that not one of you have really come to terms with what it means to believe as you do. You simply downplay it absurdly, as if Mary is only hearing one or two people at the same time, who are sitting right next to her, instead of Mary existing in more than one place at one time.
“Those “in” heaven are not so constrained.”
All of this talk about people being omnipresent in heaven is simply your own invention. You have no real evidence for it, or even anything that suggests it beyond the necessity of making mental sense of the RCC’s fables. Furthermore, human beings who are alive aren’t in heaven. They’re on Earth. To hear the prayers, she must pass into our “dimension,” as you put it. Recall the point I made to Natural Law, before he punted and went straight for the insult. The angel Gabriel was not always present with Daniel. He was held up for some 20 or more days with the demonic “Prince” of that realm, and therefore could not meet with Daniel when he wished. If Gabriel is omnipresent because he is from heaven, then Gabriel could have been with both Daniel AND contending with the demon at the same exact time. Yet, that’s not what we see.
There simply is no evidence in the scripture, or anywhere, that supports the superstitions of the RCC. I for one will not tolerate, even for a moment, the idea of a human being sharing in the divine attributes, no matter the degree.
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