Posted on 06/25/2013 3:08:30 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
This statement is the heart of the cult that is calvinism. It makes God to be arbitrary, ruthless, and cruel--without any justice or mercy to those He created for the sole purpose of throwing them into Hell. This is why I oppose calvinism. God is the epitome of justice and mercy. He is consistent, and offers the same chance at Salvation to all men.
“You’re right—I take my view from using Scripture to interpret Scripture.”
I think you took it from your sentiments to scripture. If you can’t reconcile John 6, and other huge sections of the scripture with your views, what makes you so confident that anything you say is correct?
“Since other passages elsewhere indicate a Grace that has bee imparted to all men,”
There’s not been one post in this thread I haven’t replied to against their various objections. You’re more than welcome to give it a try yourself, instead of just telling me that your view is biblical.
“Again—no. The story of the Prodigal Son refutes that notion.”
A story about a son returning to his Father confirms only your misconceptions. That’s pretty much the entire story of Calvinism.
Ahh--including the statement from the Father saying "He was DEAD, and now is alive!"?
calvinsim says that dead men can't make those sorts of decisions.
“Titus 2:11 says “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men” (emphasis mine)”
By this is meant the Gospel of the grace of God has appeared to all men, but not that all men are the elect of God, since to be the elect you must have far more than just the “appearance” of the grace. It must work within you, revealing to you that Jesus is the Christ. Here is the Gospel called “the gospel of the grace of God.”
Act 20:24 ... to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
The Gospel certainly has “appeared” to all men, yet in the ears of the reprobate it destroys them; they have “no cloak for their sin,”(John 15:22); they are unable to deny their guilt, and so in this case the Gospel of the Grace of God brings to them destruction, “being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed” (1 Pe 2:8); and again, ungodly men “of old ordained to this condemnation” (Jud 1:4).
In contrast, those who are “ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48); as they were never ordained to condemnation, but instead are infallibly brought to the LORD because they are His sheep.
“I agree. I never said God isn’t involved in the conversion from carnal to spiritual. He provided the Grace, without which, none would be saved.”
And yet He did not provide it to the Jews in John 6. It was never given to them at all by God to believe.
“It makes God to be arbitrary, ruthless, and cruel—without any justice or mercy to those He created for the sole purpose of throwing them into Hell. “
How is it cruel for God when the natural man freely plunges himself into sin and refuses to believe? What does it mean when the scripture says:
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
There is no spark of goodness in man hiding around somewhere for God to just awaken. Man is corrupt to the innermost part of his soul. If it comes to be that you seek after God, you certainly don’t have yourself to blame, but the mercy of God on an undeserving sinner:
Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Jer_24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
If God is just in condemning people who deny Him to hell, how does it follow that God is obligated to give His mercy to anyone? If damnation in hell is justice, then shouldn’t mercy have a right to select its own? “Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?”, “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?”
“He is consistent, and offers the same chance at Salvation to all men.”
If that was true, then everyone would have the same EQUAL chance. Yet for centuries the Indians in the Americas had never so much as even heard the Gospel. Millions of people have died and gone to hell without their road to Damascus moment. Others have died due to the disobedience of ministers in preaching the Gospel to them, leaving them instead to live oblivious to the importance of salvation. At least if we take this from your position, for I argue that it is God who raises up men to preach his Gospel, and so ordains it before the foundation of the world that it should be done, so that none of the elect can ever fail to hear the Gospel and convert.
“Ahh—including the statement from the Father saying “He was DEAD, and now is alive!”?
calvinsim says that dead men can’t make those sorts of decisions. “
If this is the best you can offer, I don’t think I have much to fear of you for the Gospel’s sake.
If you're going to twist Scripture that badly, then there is no way to talk any sense into you. It does NOT say the Gospel has appeared to all men (and it hadn't at the time it was written), it says that the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men. That is past tense, not future, it it plainly says grace, not gospel.
If you insist on holding on to your twisted view of plain scripture, then please don't reply. I'm done.
“It does NOT say the Gospel has appeared to all men (and it hadn’t at the time it was written), it says that the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men.”
Whether you call it the Gospel of the grace of God, or just the grace of God, that it “appeared” to the damned and the elect is not debatable. You’re trying to prove so much without addressing the entirety of the scriptures, which you claimed earlier must be interpreted with the aid of those same scriptures.
While I appreciate your opinion, it is not a truly Protestant view. It is a Catholic view. People who say they are "well studied" should understand what they are saying. I did not get my views from Calvin. And, shocking as this might sound, Calvin didn't get his views from himself. Like Calvin, I went back and studied Augustine's writings and history. It was Augustine who convinced me about God sovereignty and election-not Calvin. Free will is the heresy Augustine fought against. In fact, I still haven't had much chance to read Calvin's writings. And I do not find Augustine's writings "dangerous".
...That is what happens to many young Christians who come to faith under the Calvinist teachings. They figure they are not chosen and then walk away.
I can't speak for all Calvinists because there are not many that I personally know. Many at this site knows that I came to my Reformed views within the last four or five years based upon what others pointed out to me. I'm not sure how one can decide that they are not "chosen". It would seem to me that that would be something that only a person internally could answer. And if they came to the conclusion that they were not chosen and walked away, then isn't that what John tells us,
LOL!!! We certainly can't let scripture get in our way.
OK. Please provide us with a reference on the subject of predestination outside Augustine and Calvin comparing and contrasting the scriptures. I have yet to find any scholarly works apart from Augustine and Calvin.
This is your opportunity to provide us with why you've come to the conclusion you have. I have yet to find any such detailed analysis.
Sorry X. I think we have to go back farther than that. We must deal with the following scriptures:
Psa_58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
They will just reply to all arguments based on Scripture by finding Scripture they are convinced will deny what Christ meant when He told Nicodemus, "whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life".If you want to be taken serious, never ever do that to my comments again. You reveal your leftists leanings when you do such things!
You truncated my statement. In its entirely it was: First, we must deal with scripture such as "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." We must deal with the extent of the atonement, "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." "For God loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."
The verses you posted are also very good ones for this discussion. However, an "unlimited atonement" and "particular salvation" seem more immediate to me.
After all, God did command everyone, everywhere to repent.
I, too, do not find Calvin’s views to be dangerous. I think he tried to seriously consider every verse and tie them together into a systematic theology that dealt comprehensively with the entire bible.
I’m with Alamo-girl on this one, though, to a large degree. I think both predestination AND free will are within scripture, and that we make a mistake in any system which doesn’t completely account for each of these.
As A-G has pointed out, God’s commandments require the exercise of obedience. In Acts 17 Paul clearly says that God commands everyone to repent.
Hmmmmm...I've never equated the Reformed view with being a radical leftist. I'll have to include that in the "Things I've Learned Today" file.
As far as what Christ told Nicodemus: "whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" , you're completely missing the point. What Christ states is truth. The question becomes who empowers one to believe. It's the same as God granting us repentance-something that still has not been addressed.
“I think he tried to seriously consider every verse and tie them together into a systematic theology that dealt comprehensively with the entire bible.”
God forbid we do something like that!
“I’m with Alamo-girl on this one, though, to a large degree. I think both predestination AND free will are within scripture, and that we make a mistake in any system which doesn’t completely account for each of these.”
If only you’d take the time to study such things, instead of making such contradictory statements! How does it follow that if God predestinates all things by His immutable will, that God does not predestinate all things by His immutable will?
And what is “free will” to you? Obviously, if you had such a thing, properly defined, you would stop sinning and would be a saint among men. If free-will is but a thing with a “little” power to do things, it is the same, as Luther says, “As if one should say, “Free-will” is that which is not
free. Or as if one should term fire cold, and earth hot.” It is not even logical to speak in these terms, as no matter how you view it, your will, when not in the hands of God, is in “the snare of the devil... taken captive by him at his will.” So how is your will “free” if you, by necessity, desire to sin and keep on sinning, even against your spiritual will given to you from on High? And how does one who is previously a “child of wrath,” utterly sold under sin and spiritually dead, come to possess a holy thought that he never once had before? If God gave it, how can you claim it and make it a condition that you yourself must achieve through your own power?
Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Eph_1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
And if God reveals Himself to you, how can you deny that He is the Christ? And if you say that God must give you grace so that you can have a choice, from what good thing in you does that choice come from? Some hidden goodness in your foul and wretched soul? Or, are you saying that God temporarily regenerates your soul, so that you can discern spiritual things and come to a “fair” choice, before immediately being put to death again?
Seems like I'm getting accused of that a lot (twice on the same thread). :O)
It is meant to emphasize the point you're trying to bring up. Limited atonement is precisely what those verses in Psalms states. There are others. One cannot repent unless it is granted by God. We can safely say that everyone who has repented has done so because it was granted by the Father. We can also assume that since repentance must be granted by the Father, then there are some who God does not grant this ability to (e.g. the Jews and the hardening of their hearts).
Granted God does command everyone, everywhere to repent. But this ignores the point that everyone, everywhere do not want to repent on their own will. God gives us a beautifully land and we trash it with idols. God sends drought and wars and we complaint that He doesn't love us. We are stubborn and refuse to want to be reconciled to God.
For some God simply leave them in their state. For others God knocks them over the head and yanks them out of Sodom so that He may call out a people to bring glory to Himself (perfect love, perfect joy, perfect peace). It's not that Christians are any better than those who He passes over. Scripture tells us He takes the worst and He promises us persecution for what He has done. But that's OK. His mercy to some is to show mankind His truth and beauty-in all of our calousness. For believers He reveals the wickedness of our souls, the grace of His mercy, and His enduring love.
If one has “free will” why do Christians freely will to sin?
I never get tired of asking that question even though I never get a response.
That is free will in operation. They don't want to, they don't do it.
“That is free will in operation. They don’t want to, they don’t do it.”
No, that is an act by Necessity in action, a product of a sin nature that not only doesn’t want to believe, but flagrantly wars against God. It cannot be “free,” as a will that is free cannot possibly be under the bondage of the desires of the flesh and of the mind or in the “snare” of the devil. A will under such bondage, by necessity (as opposed to compulsion), must act according to its wicked nature. And this it does of its own will, but not according to its “free-will.”
Free will is not the ability to choose as God wishes, but the will expressing itself.
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